North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

The Horse Boy said:
Isn't charlie gray the man in charge of AL'S elephant program and a few of the ones in europe?
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No. Just ALS. He has a long, long history with elephants.

Canada has a strong relationship with Europe and often has relaxed importation/exportation rules than USA does with other countries. It makes sense for him to look to Europe for a bull versus USA because the importation would be less complicated. People have imported from Europe to Canada to USA because of the regulations (as for chickens just easy to carry eggs across the border, just tell customs they are eating eggs). I bought a dog (puppy at the time) from Canada 6 years ago and we had to wait until 4 (or 5?) months old due to rabies vaccination.
 
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ZCChip said:
No. Just ALS. He has a long, long history with elephants.

Canada has a strong relationship with Europe and often has relaxed importation/exportation rules than USA does with other countries. It makes sense for him to look to Europe for a bull versus USA because the importation would be less complicated. People have imported from Europe to Canada to USA because of the regulations (as for chickens just easy to carry eggs across the border, just tell customs they are eating eggs). I bought a dog (puppy at the time) from Canada 6 years ago and we had to wait until 4 (or 5?) months old due to rabies vaccination.
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Yes, I'm fairly confident we'll see them import a European bull within the next few years. There are quite a few bulls essentially rotting in bachelor holding over there that are unrelated to any of ALS' three lines so finding one wouldn't be too difficult.

ALS seems content on exporting surplus animals down to the US, something that I find no issue in since it's worked out mutually well for both parties so far. In fact I think we'll likely see Onyx make the move down here in the next few years despite the tariff situation, he's pushing that age now where he likely has begin seperation from his natal group. Denver has the room and could probably house him for years yet.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
ALS seems content on exporting surplus animals down to the US, something that I find no issue in since it's worked out mutually well for both parties so far. In fact I think we'll likely see Onyx make the move down here in the next few years despite the tariff situation, he's pushing that age now where he likely has begin seperation from his natal group. Denver has the room and could probably house him for years yet.
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That could be the USA Zoo's bargaining chip to get at least one small matrilineal from ALS to USA. :) Granted they are related to several elephants in USA, but I could think of two facilities that could use one more breeding cow or a pair of mother and daughter.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Yes certianly, and I believe we will see them be a major contributor given a decade or so's time. Assuming they have an active reccomendation to receive a new bull for when Casey inevitably is unable to produce more calves/passes away then they will become a powerhouse that could surely supply some surplus to facilities hoping to obtain a matriline in the future.
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Unless their philosophy has changed, there’s no way white oak has any intention of moving any animals out of yulee. They want to have a herd that rivals that of wild counterparts and their management is very much hands off let elephants be elephants, much like the elephant sanctuary, but with breeding(As it should be).

That means moving an animal from 1500+ acres to a measly 3-7 or 15 if their lucky like at Tulsa is off brand from what they want for their herd.

Also, yes they work with the AZA but are entirely privately owned and work entirely independently when it comes to AZA recommendations. There’s no way to force them to do anything as they will continue to function and work with or without their accreditation. And facilities will continue to work with them whether they’re accredited or not given their ability to house and breed many “big” species. That being said, unless their owner decided to close white oak and/or sell off their elephant herd then I wouldn’t expect much if any movement out or in. Now management styles are always shifting, so that philosophy could have changed but I doubt it.
 
E Maximus said:
Unless their philosophy has changed, there’s no way white oak has any intention of moving any animals out of yulee. They want to have a herd that rivals that of wild counterparts and their management is very much hands off let elephants be elephants, much like the elephant sanctuary, but with breeding(As it should be).

That means moving an animal from 1500+ acres to a measly 3-7 or 15 if their lucky like at Tulsa is off brand from what they want for their herd.

Also, yes they work with the AZA but are entirely privately owned and work entirely independently when it comes to AZA recommendations. There’s no way to force them to do anything as they will continue to function and work with or without their accreditation. And facilities will continue to work with them whether they’re accredited or not given their ability to house and breed many “big” species. That being said, unless their owner decided to close white oak and/or sell off their elephant herd then I wouldn’t expect much if any movement out or in. Now management styles are always shifting, so that philosophy could have changed but I doubt it.
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It is a shame they're not more open to being collaborative with cow transfers, but at the very least their accreditation would allow for them to rotate bulls as need be in order to continue breeding. With the size of their facility I think them being at least a part of the SSP is of benefit. Having a large breeding facility within the country that is regularly producing calves is a plus regardless of their plans to move animals out after all.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
It is a shame they're not more open to being collaborative with cow transfers, but at the very least their accreditation would allow for them to rotate bulls as need be in order to continue breeding. With the size of their facility I think them being at least a part of the SSP is of benefit. Having a large breeding facility within the country that is regularly producing calves is a plus regardless of their plans to move animals out after all.
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The point I was trying to make is that they are essentially “not a part of the SSP”. The recommendations for them are taken with a grain of salt as the likely hood of them happening would be slim with current philosophy. And their herd is “counted” as part of the studbook however many within the elephant community do not entirely view them as part of the AZA population. Their status as AZA has nothing to do with whether they could or couldn’t receive bulls to rotate. Elephants are their own world and AZA status means nothing when it comes to what it allows in regards to animal moves.
 
E Maximus said:
The point I was trying to make is that they are essentially “not a part of the SSP”. The recommendations for them are taken with a grain of salt as the likely hood of them happening would be slim with current philosophy. And their herd is “counted” as part of the studbook however many within the elephant community do not entirely view them as part of the AZA population. Their status as AZA has nothing to do with whether they could or couldn’t receive bulls to rotate. Elephants are their own world and AZA status means nothing when it comes to what it allows in regards to animal moves.
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I doubt their herd will be sustainable genetically in the long term if they don't undertake bull swaps at the very least - most of their current herd descends from a select few wild-born bulls; two of which are still alive, but both elderly.

Whilst they may be able to afford to mantain this method of operations for the next few decades, it's going to reach a point where they would need new genetics through bull swaps with other AZA facilities.
 
Jambo said:
I doubt their herd will be sustainable genetically in the long term if they don't undertake bull swaps at the very least - most of their current herd descends from a select few wild-born bulls; two of which are still alive, but both elderly.

Whilst they may be able to afford to mantain this method of operations for the next few decades, it's going to reach a point where they would need new genetics through bull swaps with other AZA facilities.
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They can and likely will undergo bull swaps, it appears that them being AZA doesn't have any effect on those transfers either way. Though I was under the impression that not being accredited made transfers more difficult; evidently this isn't the case. New knowledge to me, but always happy to adjust my perspective.
 
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Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Yes, I'm fairly confident we'll see them import a European bull within the next few years. There are quite a few bulls essentially rotting in bachelor holding over there that are unrelated to any of ALS' three lines so finding one wouldn't be too difficult.

ALS seems content on exporting surplus animals down to the US, something that I find no issue in since it's worked out mutually well for both parties so far. In fact I think we'll likely see Onyx make the move down here in the next few years despite the tariff situation, he's pushing that age now where he likely has begin seperation from his natal group. Denver has the room and could probably house him for years yet.
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I think you and many of the other forum members might be forgetting ALS already has a mature male onsite named George.

George at African Lion Safari (Ontario) in Canada - Elephant Encyclopedia and Database

The problem with George is that he has not produced any calves to my knowledge. So them looking for a new bull (perhaps a European import as discussed) is much more logical.
 
The Horse Boy said:
I think you and many of the other forum members might be forgetting ALS already has a mature male onsite named George.

George at African Lion Safari (Ontario) in Canada - Elephant Encyclopedia and Database

The problem with George is that he has not produced any calves to my knowledge. So them looking for a new bull (perhaps a European import as discussed) is much more logical.
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And you apparently aren't aware that the reason George can't produce calves is because he's been chemically castrated.
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
It was done to make George safer to handle, he's their go to elephant for public encounters.
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In fact i know elephant bulls have always been managed under protected contact because they can be much more unpredictable and hormonal than the cows. That was why when whipsnade used to have keepers take all the cows and calves around the park, they would leave the breedinf bull Emmett (at these times) in the main paddock. I think castrating a captive elephant bull or any male animal is deplorable.
 
The Horse Boy said:
In fact i know elephant bulls have always been managed under protected contact because they can be much more unpredictable and hormonal than the cows. That was why when whipsnade used to have keepers take all the cows and calves around the park, they would leave the breedinf bull Emmett (at these times) in the main paddocks.
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Elewiki literally says that George is managed under free contact.
 
George might eventually be better off in a facility where he could mentor young males like Denver when groucho passes, or a modern facility with geriatric cows to act as a companion like Audubon. Despite George being castrated, he's witnessed countless births and mountings from Johnson, so I'm sure he'd make an excellent bull teacher
 
The Horse Boy said:
George might eventually be better off in a facility where he could mentor young males like Denver when groucho passes, or a modern facility with geriatric cows to act as a companion like Audubon. Despite George being castrated, he's witnessed countless births and mountings from Johnson, so I'm sure he'd make an excellent mentor
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What would the point of moving him be? As I said earlier, he's used by ALS for encounters with the public. Why on earth would they give him up when he's doubtlessly quite lucrative for them to utilize?
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
What would the point of moving him be? As I said earlier, he's used by ALS for encounters with the public. Why on earth would they give him up when he's doubtlessly quite lucrative for them to utilize?
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It's the fact that he's still managed under old style approaches by keeper that many elephant programs don't follow anymore as I've pointed out about their elephant program yestersay
 
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