North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

The Horse Boy said:
It's the fact that he's still managed under old style approaches by keeper that many elephant programs don't follow anymore as I've pointed out about their elephant program yestersay
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Okay, and? What's your point? There's no indication that ALS will transition from free contact to protected contact anytime soon.
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
Okay, and? What's your point? There's no indication that ALS will transition from free contact to protected contact anytime soon.
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Free contact is a lot more invasive for elephants and i just feel the animals have more choice when managed under PC let alone the fact that numerous trainers have historically been severely injured or even killed when working with them. I've watched a video on YouTube a lot of times that was part of an Animal Planet program named Untamed and Uncut containing footage of a trainer is walking around a pen with a herd of Asian cows, then the notoriously aggressive cow at the time named Cindy charges at him, chases him out the enclosure and then he tries to close the gate, but she rams it open flicking him to the ground. The mad cow then tries to crush him but failed because he's right against the wall of a small building and her head is pressed against it on a 90 degree angle.
 
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The Horse Boy said:
Free contact is a lot more invasive for elephants and i just feel the animals have more choice when managed under PC
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I still fail to see what your point is. Even if ALS does eventually switch to protected contact, why would they give up George? He's a relatively young animal in an excellent social situation.
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
I still fail to see what your point is. Even if ALS does eventually switch to protected contact, why would they give up George? He's a relatively young animal in an excellent social situation.
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Ah if that's what you mean meant by my point, then if he can't breed cows, he's better off in facilities without any breeding
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
Why??? He's a valued member of ALS's herd. He technically even functions as a mentor to bull calves there.
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Oh right I did not get the full picture here. I honestly can't pretend to be knowledgeable about ALS' facility and population like I am w many of the US ones. But I do know their impressive breeding record and management philosophy of course. I'm also wary of the fact that they have sent a few bulls to zoos in the states without any hurdles including Johnson going to Columbus last summer. So I don't really see the problem with sending cows and calves as they have a whopping number of these.
 
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The Horse Boy said:
George might eventually be better off in a facility where he could mentor young males like Denver when groucho passes, or a modern facility with geriatric cows to act as a companion like Audubon. Despite George being castrated, he's witnessed countless births and mountings from Johnson, so I'm sure he'd make an excellent bull teacher
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There is zero reason to move him offsite. There are multiple mature bulls already in the US that would be just as suitable mentor bulls without the unnecessary money and stress of importing an entirely new animal. Not to mention that he's completly useless for breeding even if he wasn't castrated, he has numerous half brothers and other closely related family spread across the US. It would be a complete waste of money to import him.

George is fully integrated with their cow grouping and essentially acts as a non-reproductive cow himself. Just because you dont agree with how ALS manages their elephants doesn't mean it would be a good decision to move him.
 
The Horse Boy said:
So I don't really see the problem with sending cows and calves as they have a whopping number of these.
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As previously established, Charlie Gray is the problem with regards to that.

Speaking more generally: Could you please at least attempt to do some research before sprouting off on a thread? I get that this is a speculation thread, but you've been told off for clogging threads before and this most recent conversation between the two of us here is just another example of it IMHO.

Everything we went over had already been discussed previously, so our conversation added nothing of particular value to the thread.

Look, from one Autistic to another: I fully "get" special interests and all, but the user base here is just going to view you as annoying unless you yourself add value to them.

IE: Making your own threads about topics that are interesting to you, so other users can choose to interact with them, instead of spamming all remotely relevant threads with said topic. Or chiming in on other threads when the topic in question is already being actively discussed instead of constantly inserting it into them.
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
As previously established, Charlie Gray is the problem with regards to that.

Speaking more generally: Could you please at least attempt to do some research before sprouting off on a thread? I get that this is a speculation thread, but you've been told off for clogging threads before and this most recent conversation between the two of us here is just another example of it IMHO.

Everything we went over had already been discussed previously, so our conversation added nothing of particular value to the thread.

Look, from one Autistic to another: I fully "get" special interests and all, but the user base here is just going to view you as annoying unless you yourself add value to them.

IE: Making your own threads about topics that are interesting to you, so other users can choose to interact with them, instead of spamming all remotely relevant threads with said topic. Or chiming in on other threads when the topic in question is already being actively discussed instead of constantly inserting it into them.
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I said I was sorry so thag I could still be part. I always fo my best to put out interesting content
 
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The Horse Boy said:
I've watched a video on YouTube a lot of times that was part of an Animal Planet program named Untamed and Uncut containing footage of a trainer is walking around a pen with a herd of Asian cows, then the notoriously aggressive cow at the time named Cindy charges at him, chases him out the enclosure and then he tries to close the gate, but she rams it open flicking him to the ground. The mad cow then tries to crush him but failed because he's right against the wall of a small building and her head is pressed against it on a 90 degree angle.
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Oh for the love of...

Cindy attacked that man because he had previously abused her. He had even been warned to not interact with her prior to the attack! To say nothing of how Cindy grew up in a poor social situation, which presumably only aggravated things further.
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
Oh for the love of...

Cindy attacked that man because he had previously abused her. He had even been warned to not interact with her prior to the attack! To say nothing of how Cindy grew up in a poor social situation, which presumably only aggravated things further.
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Wait, you knew about that incident?
 
The Horse Boy said:
Wait, you knew about that incident?
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I literally watched that episode the day it premiered.

Regardless, your charactization of Cindy as "aggressive" and "mad" is unjustified. The attack was provoked and frankly, Cindy was justified in defending herself. Eyewitness accounts even state that she easily could've killed that man, but appeared to choose not to do so.

This is the exact sort of thing that I meant when I said that you need to do research before you throw your two cents into the conversation. If you'd even bothered to read the comment section of the video itself before you posted it you would've known that it's charactization of the attack was inaccurate and sensationalized.
 
Wisp O' Mist said:
I literally watched that episode the day it premiered.

Regardless, your charactization of Cindy as "aggressive" and "mad" is unjustified. The attack was provoked and frankly, Cindy was justified in defending herself. Eyewitness accounts even state that she easily could've killed that man, but appeared to choose not to do so.

This is the exact sort of thing that I meant when I said that you need to do research before you throw your two cents into the conversation. If you'd even bothered to read the comment section of the video itself before you posted it you would've known that it's charactization of the attack was inaccurate and sensationalized.
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As a matter of fact I do know elephants are known to hold grudges over abuses from handlers or witnessing deaths from being shot by hunters in the wild due the to their great memories. So yes I apologize if I hadn't read the whole thing, but it does make more sense thinking about how elephants used to be abused so much in captivity
 
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The Horse Boy said:
As a matter of fact I do know elephants are known to hold grudges over abuses from handlers or witnessing deaths from being shot by hunters in the wild due the to their great memories. So yes I apologize if I hadn't read the whole thing, but it does make more sense thinking about how elephants used to be abused in captive enviornments so much
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Nile Hippo Expert said:
Again this thread is getting really off guard here, can we please get back to meaningful discussions?
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The Horse Boy said:
I'm also wary of the fact that they have sent a few bulls to zoos in the states without any hurdles including Johnson going to Columbus last summer. So I don't really see the problem with sending cows and calves as they have a whopping number of these.
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Trying to loop back to some kind of topic here, I will say that it is more than likely that we'll see ALS move cows down at some point.

The smart thing, of course, would be to send a few matrilines down to the states soon, but with tarrifs, Charlie Gray and other factors this won't be the case. However with Canada's policies rapidly changing I think it's relatively safe to say that they'll make their way here probably within a few decades.
 
I've noticed Tendaji hasn't impregnated Zola at Dallas, tho he's starting to almost turn into a Jackson/Mabu/Callee level breeder. On the basis of seeing posts on this thread last year, it's been concluded he has attempted to court and mount her, but she cryptically and obstinately resisted it. It's vital Zola conceives ASAP or else she might get too old to produce offspring in a short while as her estimated age is 21-22 like her two roommate peers. If it gets to that point with her, then the other young cow mlilo will be the only viable individual for producing offspring, resulting in options for that being too restrictive IMO.
 
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The Horse Boy said:
I've noticed Tendaji hasn't impregnated Zola at Dallas, tho he's starting to almost turn into a Jackson/Mabu/Callee level breeder. On the basis of seeing posts on this thread last year, it's been concluded he has attempted to court and mount her, but she cryptically and obstinately resisted it. It's vital Zola conceives ASAP or else she might get too old to produce offspring in a short while as her estimated age is 21-22 like her two roommate peers. If it gets to that point with her, then the other young cow mlilo will be the only viable individual for producing offspring, resulting in options for that being too restrictive IMO.
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She could be already pregnant but the zoo has not announced it yet. She is only 20.
 
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