North American Asian and African Elephant Populations 2025: Discussion and Speculation

Sdudla is worked the same way in and out of musth as he’s a very docile male.
I feel most captive elephant bulls are very mellow most of the time. But it's still a smart move to build enclosures to be heavy duty if the were manage bulls just in case they suddenly decide to push pull or hit the fencing and gates out of musth. Don't the electrified steel cables in most modern facilities play a huge part in that?
 
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An interesting update regarding Johnson in Columbus.
I was at the zoo recently and got to watch a training session with Johnson, and a few guests inquired whether he had met Frankie, the females, etc. She stated that he has been introduced to all the other elephants, but hasn't gotten along very well with anyone very well. He did "fine" with Rudy, but was very pushy and dominant around Phoebe and Sunny (And due to them being pregnant, they didn't want to risk anything). He does alright with Frankie in spurts, but when he "gets bored" he'll start to push Frankie around and be rough on him.
I'm hopeful the situation will change due to it still being early in the game, but it's not a great indication of him being successful there. He doesn't appear to be acting like the well-socialized, experienced bull he should be...if nothing changes, I can't anticipate he'll stay there very long.
 
An interesting update regarding Johnson in Columbus.
I was at the zoo recently and got to watch a training session with Johnson, and a few guests inquired whether he had met Frankie, the females, etc. She stated that he has been introduced to all the other elephants, but hasn't gotten along very well with anyone very well. He did "fine" with Rudy, but was very pushy and dominant around Phoebe and Sunny (And due to them being pregnant, they didn't want to risk anything). He does alright with Frankie in spurts, but when he "gets bored" he'll start to push Frankie around and be rough on him.
I'm hopeful the situation will change due to it still being early in the game, but it's not a great indication of him being successful there. He doesn't appear to be acting like the well-socialized, experienced bull he should be...if nothing changes, I can't anticipate he'll stay there very long.
Well, let's be glad St Louis is very definitive in dispatching Raja there to be a backup breeder in case eveytbing goes awry on Johnson's end. I'm sure Raja will socialize and flirt very effectively with the other herd members there should Johnson have to move to another facility in near future. I know there were rumblins about him chasing down Rudy and being too aggressive towards her for her let him mount and impregnate her.
 
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An interesting update regarding Johnson in Columbus.
I was at the zoo recently and got to watch a training session with Johnson, and a few guests inquired whether he had met Frankie, the females, etc. She stated that he has been introduced to all the other elephants, but hasn't gotten along very well with anyone very well. He did "fine" with Rudy, but was very pushy and dominant around Phoebe and Sunny (And due to them being pregnant, they didn't want to risk anything). He does alright with Frankie in spurts, but when he "gets bored" he'll start to push Frankie around and be rough on him.
I'm hopeful the situation will change due to it still being early in the game, but it's not a great indication of him being successful there. He doesn't appear to be acting like the well-socialized, experienced bull he should be...if nothing changes, I can't anticipate he'll stay there very long.
I don't know how much socialisation he got with the cows and calves at ALS, but if he didn't, that might explain why he isn't appearing to be the most sociable bull at Columbus currently.

Keep in mind Columbus will also eventually bring Raja in, who could potentially provide that role as being a socialisation bull with the cows, and a mentor for Frankie. I doubted Columbus would ever breed from Johnson (and perhaps he was a complacency in the event Sabu didn't succeed).

Especially once Raja arrives, Raja will surely get priority being more valuable, so I don't see it being much of an issue long term if Johnson doesn't get along well with the girls.
 
Well, let's be glad St Louis is very definitive in dispatching Raja there to be a backup breeder in case eveytbing goes awry on Johnson's end. I'm sure Raja will socialize and flirt very effectively with the other herd members there should Johnson have to move to another facility in near future. I know there were rumblins about him chasing down Rudy and being too aggressive towards her for her let him mount and impregnate her.

well. Rudy needs to get pregnant!
 
I doubted Columbus would ever breed from Johnson (and perhaps he was a complacency in the event Sabu didn't succeed).
Columbus has openly stated on multiple occasions that the goal is to breed both Johnson and Raja to their girls. It is likely that they want every oppertunity they can to build up their herd, and having two bulls could (in theory of course) help achieve that goal in short order.

It is definitely a positive that Raja will also be moving, hopefully he does better. But arguably Raja has just as much social inexperience as Johnson, maybe more. He has never been around another bull, only been to one facility, etc. Of course, not a sure indication he won't do well but could definitely be a factor.
 
I'm sure Raja can gladly fix that. Her reproductive window is nearly closing!
We shouldn't get our hopes up on Rudy. She's 23, still not pregnant and likely won't have the oppertunity to be until much later this year/early next. Short of her being an outlier, I just can't see her realistically having a calf. There is zero guarantee Raja will have any better luck with her, we all said that about Johnson and look where we are!
 
right now Johnson is the only option and he’s a proven breeding bull. Maybe his assertive behavior is part of the breeding behavior.
Unless the cows at ALS were extremely submissive, it is unlikely he was behaving like this up there. Most cows don't like overly-pushy and rude bulls. It's one thing for the young inexperienced cows to be frightened off by strong advances, but for an experienced female like Phoebe (who has been naturally bred by 4 different males now) to reject him is absolutely an indication that he's acting inappropriately.
 
Unless the cows at ALS were extremely submissive, it is unlikely he was behaving like this up there. Most cows don't like overly-pushy and rude bulls. It's one thing for the young inexperienced cows to be frightened off by strong advances, but for an experienced female like Phoebe (who has been naturally bred by 4 different males now) to reject him is absolutely an indication that he's acting inappropriately.
I guess Johnson might have been the reason he hasn't bred Rudy as she was too put off by his aggressive demeanor
 
Unless the cows at ALS were extremely submissive, it is unlikely he was behaving like this up there. Most cows don't like overly-pushy and rude bulls. It's one thing for the young inexperienced cows to be frightened off by strong advances, but for an experienced female like Phoebe (who has been naturally bred by 4 different males now) to reject him is absolutely an indication that he's acting inappropriately.

Keep in mind - she is also already pregnant. It may be a completely different story when she's cycling.
 
Keep in mind - she is also already pregnant. It may be a completely different story when she's cycling.
Good point! She likely would be more receptive to being bred once her calf is on the ground. But it sounded like he's not just being pushy in a breeding aspect, but in a general behavioral aspect as well. He seems to be a bit of a bully to everyone. Despite Phoebe being pregnant, she is a mature, confident cow and the dominant figure at the facility. If he's being too much for her in that then he's doing something wrong :p
Of course pregnancy could've been the key factor here (as you mentioned), and perhaps they'll mesh better once the calves are a few months old and the cows are cycling again. Maybe it'll give him time to cool his jets a bit too. That would be a best case scenario.
 
Could Cameron Park continue with elephants if they have enough space for a bigger complex, or are they more likely to phase out?
 
Could Cameron Park continue with elephants if they have enough space for a bigger complex, or are they more likely to phase out?

They have what I believe is the smallest barn in any AZA zoo, something like 1800 sq ft. The exhibit itself is just under an acre in size. Given recent developments to the west of the exhibit with a new hoofstock barn for the large greater kudu population and a new rhino being brought in, there is no room for expansion that way. On the east side is the zoos orangutan complex, so no potential is there as well.

The zoo has been mum on the future of elephants, but I think almost anyone would assume they will phase them out once there last female passes. My assumption is they move the rhinos over to the elephant exhibit at that point and use the old rhino exhibit as a giraffe expansion or second hoofstock yard.
 
They have what I believe is the smallest barn in any AZA zoo, something like 1800 sq ft. The exhibit itself is just under an acre in size. Given recent developments to the west of the exhibit with a new hoofstock barn for the large greater kudu population and a new rhino being brought in, there is no room for expansion that way. On the east side is the zoos orangutan complex, so no potential is there as well.

The zoo has been mum on the future of elephants, but I think almost anyone would assume they will phase them out once there last female passes. My assumption is they move the rhinos over to the elephant exhibit at that point and use the old rhino exhibit as a giraffe expansion or second hoofstock yard.
I visited just two years ago, and spoke to a keeper about Tembo's situation at the orangutan complex, and one of the questions that came up was the future of their program once she passes. She (the keeper) told me they're contemplating building a new much bigger complex for breeding or bachelor groups, as I'm extremely sure the current facility isn't roomy and durable enough for bulls, let alone that is it not spacious for proper herd structures. According to Google Earth, they have a large piece of undeveloped woodland hemmed in between the shade structures by their South American area, lemur and gibbon islands and one trail besides the African savannah areas measuring roughly 3 acres. If there are no laws against building on that forest, that could certainly be bountiful to make a proper elephant habitat and barn.
 
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Wouldn't Caldwell be more likely to commit to elephants more than Cameron Park? They're both smaller city zoos and their enclosures are about the same size. The barn space at Tyler seems much bigger tho.
 
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