North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I have to say, Im very pleasantly surprised at the direction Columbus is taking with their breeding program. I didn't expect a new bull so soon after Sabu, let alone two (one being Raja no less ;)). While it very well may be too late for Rudy, Columbus is certianly taking the initiative to give their girls as much of a chance to breed naturally as possible. This is long overdue, but great to see.
And kudos to St Louis too! Hopefully with their three young girls their breeding program can continue to flourish, I just hope the zoo succeeds in impregnating Maliha soon. Assuming Samundra arrives in 2025, she would be 18, which isn't past the cutoff by any means but cutting it close.
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Even in the event Rudy is unable to conceive, Columbus still has Phoebe and Sunny so they'll still be able to get calves on the ground. If required I don't see why they can't acquire additional cows as well!

Hopefully AI is being considered with Maliha too, if she hasn't been AI'd already. She's a year older than Jade, so I don't really see why they would elect to breed Jade and not Maliha at this point in time. The younger female (Priya) can afford to wait until Samundra arrives, but it would be beneficial for Maliha to conceive prior to then.
 
Jambo said:
Even in the event Rudy is unable to conceive, Columbus still has Phoebe and Sunny so they'll still be able to get calves on the ground. If required I don't see why they can't acquire additional cows as well!
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As of this summer, staff in Columbus said that Phoebe's next calf will be her last. While she could theoretically breed into her 40's, I doubt she will. Now It's just going to be a game of whether Sabu, Johnson or Raja will be the lucky sire ;)
I have very few doubts that Sunny will breed frequently and successfully. She's a social young cow who is very enthusiastic about both calves and bulls alike. I think she may single handedly raise Columbus' breeding program from the dead if she has a few female calves lol. Obviously Rudy breeding is ideal, but we should be realistic. She has shown very little interest in Sabu as far as I know and of course theres the matter of her age...
Jambo said:
Hopefully AI is being considered with Maliha too, if she hasn't been AI'd already. She's a year older than Jade, so I don't really see why they would elect to breed Jade and not Maliha at this point in time.
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I think its incredibly likely St Louis is actively trying to AI all three girls. Securing calves for all three of them would not only cement them as breeders but give them some time to get acclimated to Samundra while they raise calves. Priya isn't a huge concern as she has the better part of a decade to concieve her first calf, but I don't doubt St Louis is at least trying with her as well.
 
tigris115 said:
I thought AI was kinda shoddy with results, especially with elephants.
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It definitely is, but in St Louis' position, trying to AI Maliha and Jade (and possibly Priya) is currently the only way to get them pregnant until a male can be brought in. Maliha and Jade are in their crucial years to have their firstborns right now, waiting for Samundra may have meant loosing them as breeders.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
It definitely is, but in St Louis' position, trying to AI Maliha and Jade (and possibly Priya) is currently the only way to get them pregnant until a male can be brought in. Maliha and Jade are in their crucial years to have their firstborns right now, waiting for Samundra may have meant loosing them as breeders.
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Ok, that makes sense. I'm wondering how long it'll take until Samudra is at St. Louis.
 
tigris115 said:
Ok, that makes sense. I'm wondering how long it'll take until Samudra is at St. Louis.
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St Louis post mentioned that his estimated arrival would be "after Raja has settled into his new home" (paraphrasing), so my guess is early-mid 2025.
Maliha certianly wouldn't be past the breeding "cutoff" by this time, but we can't assume that Samundra will immediately start breeding the girls and I think St Louis knows that. Fingers crossed that Maliha's pregnancy announcement follows Jade's soon!
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I have very few doubts that Sunny will breed frequently and successfully. She's a social young cow who is very enthusiastic about both calves and bulls alike. I think she may single handedly raise Columbus' breeding program from the dead if she has a few female calves lol. Obviously Rudy breeding is ideal, but we should be realistic. She has shown very little interest in Sabu as far as I know and of course theres the matter of her age...
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In any case there's many zoos (Chester springs to mind) that have had successful herds from one female, so Columbus's breeding program still has the chance to be very successful. The acquisition of two breeding bulls gives me a lot of hope that they're committed to breeding them long term and have some sort of succession plan in place.

Even if Rudy doesn't end up conceiving Columbus still has two breeding cows, and we just have to have our fingers crossed Phoebe has a daughter to continue her line!
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
St Louis post mentioned that his estimated arrival would be "after Raja has settled into his new home" (paraphrasing), so my guess is early-mid 2025.
Maliha certianly wouldn't be past the breeding "cutoff" by this time, but we can't assume that Samundra will immediately start breeding the girls and I think St Louis knows that. Fingers crossed that Maliha's pregnancy announcement follows Jade's soon!
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Samudra has also yet to prove himself as a successful breeding bull so there's no way of knowing he'll be able to breed the females straight away.

The best course is to AI Maliha now (if she hasn't been already) and then have her and Jade deliver calves late 2024/2025 with Samudra then arriving and having the opportunity to go from there with Priya and the two other females when they begin to cycle again.
 
Jambo said:
Samudra has also yet to prove himself as a successful breeding bull so there's no way of knowing he'll be able to breed the females straight away.

The best course is to AI Maliha now (if she hasn't been already) and then have her and Jade deliver calves late 2024/2025 with Samudra then arriving and having the opportunity to go from there with Priya and the two other females when they begin to cycle again.
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They should be bred to a proven buil A.S.A.P. (no time to waste on their window of opportunity to conceive and breed)
.
 
Jambo said:
Samudra has also yet to prove himself as a successful breeding bull so there's no way of knowing he'll be able to breed the females straight away.

The best course is to AI Maliha now (if she hasn't been already) and then have her and Jade deliver calves late 2024/2025 with Samudra then arriving and having the opportunity to go from there with Priya and the two other females when they begin to cycle again.
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Samudra was the potential father of Chendra’s miscarriage in 2019. The zoo wasn’t sure if it was him or Samson since Chendra mated with both of them.
 
Yazziel said:
Samudra was the potential father of Chendra’s miscarriage in 2019. The zoo wasn’t sure if it was him or Samson since Chendra mated with both of them.
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Yeah but it wasn't confirmed which was the sire though so at this point we're not really sure if Samudra's proven. In saying that, I don't see any reason why he should fail to naturally breed the cows at Saint Louis. He's grown up in a normal herd environment and has witnessed mating many times. Now that he's fifteen he's of the perfect age to transfer and become the breeding bull at Saint Louis where he can hopefully become a proven bull.
 
Jambo said:
Even if Rudy doesn't end up conceiving Columbus still has two breeding cows, and we just have to have our fingers crossed Phoebe has a daughter to continue her line!
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And I definitely don't think we can rule out Columbus potentially gaining more cows in the future either. I mean, we didn't think Columbus would get a new breeding bull so soon, and now there's two on the way! Who knows what will happen down the road!

Yazziel said:
Samudra was the potential father of Chendra’s miscarriage in 2019. The zoo wasn’t sure if it was him or Samson since Chendra mated with both of them.
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If he's exhibited successful mating behavior, then there's little reason why he would NOT exhibit those same behaviors with St Louis' girls.
Jambo said:
He's grown up in a normal herd environment and has witnessed mating many times. Now that he's fifteen he's of the perfect age to transfer and become the breeding bull at Saint Louis where he can hopefully become a proven bull.
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If Jade, Maliha and even potentially Priya have AI calves, then St Louis is also buying themselves a lot of time. I have faith in Samundra's breeding potential, but he very likely may take years to get the job done. Its a sort of safety net and a smart one. I do hope that St Louis will have..ahem...learned from Columbus and take initiative in the odd chance Samundra proves to be a non-breeder and move a new bull in. Its no secret that Columbus has been slowly shooting itself in the foot for years by trying to rely on a nonbreeder, I would hope St Louis wouldn't follow in those footsteps if something arises.

I am more confident with the direction these breeding programs are taking. Columbus and St Louis were notoriously frustrating with how their programs were being managed, but these changes will hopefully begin to take these facilities in a new direction (now we just have to get Ongard, Billy and Sneezy breeding lol).
 
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StoppableSan said:
I will say that Samudra did spend quite a bit of time with Samson, who was a proven breeding bull at ABQ to my knowledge. Logically if he spent his time with a mature bull learning *how* to be a bull...
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Yeah they were very close and both were in together with the cows a lot of the time, hence why there was question as to which male sired Chendra’s miscarriage.

Samudra’s demonstrated he knows how to mate, so there shouldn’t be much concern. I have no doubt he’ll become a successful breeding bull at Saint Louis.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
And I definitely don't think we can rule out Columbus potentially gaining more cows in the future either. I mean, we didn't think Columbus would get a new breeding bull so soon, and now there's two on the way! Who knows what will happen down the road!
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Certainly, and it seems like more of a chance now especially with Columbus acquiring two breeding bulls with a larger dedication to breeding their elephants going forward. I still believe Houston’s mother daughter duo of Shanti and Joy will be the best candidates.
 
Jambo said:
Certainly, and it seems like more of a chance now especially with Columbus acquiring two breeding bulls with a larger dedication to breeding their elephants going forward. I still believe Houston’s mother daughter duo of Shanti and Joy will be the best candidates.
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I do wonder if Columbus plans to expand their facility in the future. While space isn't an issue right now, and their main yard/community room are quite expansive, I'm not sure how great the space would be to accomodate multiple growing groups going forward. Their two other outdoor yards are small, and their indoor space really can only accomodate one herd and a small other group.

Imo, Columbus is in a great position to expand right now. Their rhino yard and subsequent indoor space could easily be joined with the elephant spaces to expand them. The zoo hasn't announced plans to bring in another rhino, so I believe it is plausible that this could be the plan.

I remember reading somewhere on this thread years back that Columbus had plans to expand after the NA re-do, which would line up with the arrival of the new bulls + potential Sabu calves.
 
joshgrossglaza said:
I’m guessing Maclean is the father?
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He should be! The other two bulls are both on the younger side (only 15 and 12) and Tsavo is the half-brother to both Kianga and Nadirah so he definitely wouldn’t have had the opportunity to sire any calves of theirs while Jabali is Kianga’s half brother.

Nonetheless, it’s really great to see Maclean siring more calves as he’s quite the genetically valuable bull! Hopefully this is the first of several in the next couple years!
 
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