North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

Houston always starts moving their bulls into bachelor holding around 4 years old. And it is indeed a gradual switch. However that said, as a general rule, by the time they’re around six, they are usually moved over to bachelor holding permanently.

While I do *personally* think it’s a tad young to be moved over permanently myself, given Houston’s herd composition and the personalities of the elephants involved, along with their overall facility setup and management practices, there could definitely be worse things to happen to them in the world.
 
How many elephants can Houston realistically hold? Teddy and Nelson should, in theory, be mostly if not totally integrated into the bachelor herd in a few years maximum, but then there's the question of how many bachelors can they hold in addition to those four. Its fairly commonly discussed that Houston will have to undergo a matriarchal split sometime soon, but what is the limit for that to occur?
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
How many elephants can Houston realistically hold? Teddy and Nelson should, in theory, be mostly if not totally integrated into the bachelor herd in a few years maximum, but then there's the question of how many bachelors can they hold in addition to those four. Its fairly commonly discussed that Houston will have to undergo a matriarchal split sometime soon, but what is the limit for that to occur?
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I believe their capacity is 10-12 adults and their calves but anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong of course.
 
E Maximus said:
I believe their capacity is 10-12 adults and their calves but anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong of course.
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I’ve heard similar things. I have it in my head that I heard somewhere that their capacity is 13 adults plus calves, but don’t quote me on that.

Honestly, Houston could actually hold quite a number of animals if need be. Their cow and bull barns both have *at least* 5 stalls each, they do allow animals to stay in the yards overnight, and of course animals, especially cows, can be housed in multiples per stall overnight. Conceivably, assuming males all sleep separately at night and cows sleep with their two youngest calves, they could house five to six individual bulls, PLUS 15 odd animals in the cow barn. I think this would be severely pushing the exhibit purely in terms of available outdoor space, but even when they had 13 animals, everything was managed quite effectively and not looking overpopulated.
 
E Maximus said:
I believe their capacity is 10-12 adults and their calves but anyone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong of course.
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Hyak_II said:
I’ve heard similar things. I have it in my head that I heard somewhere that their capacity is 13 adults plus calves, but don’t quote me on that.

Honestly, Houston could actually hold quite a number of animals if need be. Their cow and bull barns both have *at least* 5 stalls each, they do allow animals to stay in the yards overnight, and of course animals, especially cows, can be housed in multiples per stall overnight. Conceivably, assuming males all sleep separately at night and cows sleep with their two youngest calves, they could house five to six individual bulls, PLUS 15 odd animals in the cow barn. I think this would be severely pushing the exhibit purely in terms of available outdoor space, but even when they had 13 animals, everything was managed quite effectively and not looking overpopulated.
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I believe Houston's bull barn only has four stalls - so max capacity there is four bulls assuming all are kept apart overnight. In that case, Duncan's move to Denver last year was probably in preparation for Nelson's slow move into the bachelor facility.

Not entirely sure re. the cow barn, but I believe it is indeed bigger than the cow barn. Around six or so stalls should at least give them a capacity of twelve (cows plus one calf at least). Keep in mind before the new bull barn was built they kept three bulls with four cows (and three calves). We can therefore assume they have six stalls there at the very least.

Sixteen elephants in total (plus the bulls) does make for a reasonable capacity imo.
 
Jambo said:
I believe Houston's bull barn only has four stalls - so max capacity there is four bulls assuming all are kept apart overnight. In that case, Duncan's move to Denver last year was probably in preparation for Nelson's slow move into the bachelor facility.

Not entirely sure re. the cow barn, but I believe it is indeed bigger than the cow barn. Around six or so stalls should at least give them a capacity of twelve (cows plus one calf at least). Keep in mind before the new bull barn was built they kept three bulls with four cows (and three calves). We can therefore assume they have six stalls there at the very least.

Sixteen elephants in total (plus the bulls) does make for a reasonable capacity imo.
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I pulled their captive-bred wildlife permit and can confirm its 5 stalls in each barn and each is roughly the same size but you bring a good point. They did indeed house 3 bulls and 4 cows with just 5 stalls in their cow barn. They do have regularly warm nights so their herd does typically get access unless there's severe weather so they could definitely push 16 total.
 
E Maximus said:
I pulled their captive-bred wildlife permit and can confirm its 5 stalls in each barn and each is roughly the same size but you bring a good point. They did indeed house 3 bulls and 4 cows with just 5 stalls in their cow barn. They do have regularly warm nights so their herd does typically get access unless there's severe weather so they could definitely push 16 total.
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The bull barn has four stalls where the bulls are kept overnight. There is a fifth but it is not one where they are held overnight, instead it more or so serves as a holding stall where training and the like occurs.

With only five stalls in the cow barn it does make things interesting. Thai and Tucker would've been kept apart at the time and it indicates Baylor would've been kept either with Tucker overnight or still with Shanti. He would've been pushing the limits at the time, being seven years of age.
 
Jambo said:
The bull barn has four stalls where the bulls are kept overnight. There is a fifth but it is not one where they are held overnight, instead it more or so serves as a holding stall where training and the like occurs.
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A transfer of Tucker and/or Baylor will have to be on the horizon then, assuming Teddy will begin the transition to the bachelor herd around this time next year.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
A transfer of Tucker and/or Baylor will have to be on the horizon then, assuming Teddy will begin the transition to the bachelor herd around this time next year.
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I don’t think Tucker is getting transferred cause @IndianRhino said he has a breeding recommendation with Joy and Joy being 7, doesn’t meet the AZA guidelines yet till next year at 8 years old cause that’s when the AZA says you can start breeding elephants. Baylor will be getting transferred most likely.
 
Doesn't it affect the bulls when they're separated from the natal herd too early?

I'd think a proper zoo would wanna keep them in the natal herd for as long as they'd be in the wild (ofc barring exceptional circumstances)
 
tigris115 said:
Doesn't it affect the bulls when they're separated from the natal herd too early?

I'd think a proper zoo would wanna keep them in the natal herd for as long as they'd be in the wild (ofc barring exceptional circumstances)
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I assume Houston has been following Nelson and the herd's cues regarding this. Every bull calf is different after all, its entirely possible Nelson is completely weaned and has been spending increased time away from Shanti, or perhaps playing more rough with the younger calves, etc. Since space isn't apparently currently an issue, I don't see a reason why they'd be separating him prematurely otherwise.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I assume Houston has been following Nelson and the herd's cues regarding this. Every bull calf is different after all, its entirely possible Nelson is completely weaned and has been spending increased time away from Shanti, or perhaps playing more rough with the younger calves, etc. Since space isn't apparently currently an issue, I don't see a reason why they'd be separating him prematurely otherwise.
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Ok that makes sense
 
Jambo said:
It is worth mentioning Teddy could theoretically still be accommodated in the cow barn with five stalls - one for each of the adult cows plus Teddy.
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That is a potential!
Though given the fact Baylor is approaching 15 years old now and has no breeding partners at the facility, I feel like his transfer is likely at least somewhat imminent. His genetic value isn't huge, but his wildborn father only has a single other breeding offspring at the moment, so he's a prime candidate to move into a breeding situation soon imo. And considering that Houston may easily have five breeding cows in less than four years, it may be less than beneficial to house bulls in space that the growing cow herd will be needing sooner than later.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
That is a potential!
Though given the fact Baylor is approaching 15 years old now and has no breeding partners at the facility, I feel like his transfer is likely at least somewhat imminent. His genetic value isn't huge, but his wildborn father only has a single other breeding offspring at the moment, so he's a prime candidate to move into a breeding situation soon imo. And considering that Houston may easily have five breeding cows in less than four years, it may be less than beneficial to house bulls in space that the growing cow herd will be needing sooner than later.
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Overall, Baylor is a fairly valuable bull. I think we underestimate how valuable he is fairly regularly. His father is an almost 60 year old wild born bull with only one breeding offspring, his mother is the only offspring of a wild born cow, and she only has two half siblings. Through them Baylor has only 6 half cousins (and 3 current pregnancies). He only has one full sister so far and is one of his dad’s 7 offspring (all of whom are still at ages susceptible to EEHV expect Tupelo and Baylor himself), so he’s comparatively a rather valuable bull compared to many of the other recent bull calves at Columbus, Rosamond Gifford, or ALS.
 
Polar bear fan said:
Overall, Baylor is a fairly valuable bull. I think we underestimate how valuable he is fairly regularly. His father is an almost 60 year old wild born bull with only one breeding offspring, his mother is the only offspring of a wild born cow, and she only has two half siblings. Through them Baylor has only 6 half cousins (and 3 current pregnancies). He only has one full sister so far and is one of his dad’s six offspring, so he’s comparatively a rather valuable bull compared to many of the other recent bull calves at Columbus, Rosamond Gifford, or ALS.
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Baylor is full siblings with Nelson, Joy, and Duncan (now at Denver). He’s the oldest out of those 4 and they all have the same mother and father. He has 3 half siblings with Tess’s line and he’s also related to Tupelo’s calf Winnie through Thailand (though familial wise I honestly don’t what the term is called for their relation there).

While Baylor undoubtedly could be bred in the future, I also see it possible him not being bred. Joy who’s Shanti’s only daughter she has a breeding recommendation with Tucker. I think it’s a toss up, and whatever the outcome is I trust Houston Zoos judgment when it comes to their elephant care and especially with the ultimate final decision regarding Baylor.
 
Polar bear fan said:
Overall, Baylor is a fairly valuable bull. I think we underestimate how valuable he is fairly regularly. His father is an almost 60 year old wild born bull with only one breeding offspring, his mother is the only offspring of a wild born cow, and she only has two half siblings. Through them Baylor has only 6 half cousins (and 3 current pregnancies). He only has one full sister so far and is one of his dad’s 7 offspring (all of whom are still at ages susceptible to EEHV expect Tupelo and Baylor himself), so he’s comparatively a rather valuable bull compared to many of the other recent bull calves at Columbus, Rosamond Gifford, or ALS.
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Although in saying that this line is going to be far more represented in the years to come - with the number of younger individuals these lines have.

It's very likely one of Thai's sons will end up in a breeding situation sooner rather than later. With Duncan recently being sent to Denver (where he will probably be for a while), Baylor seems the likely candidate.

There's plenty of facilities who will be needing a bull in the coming years; Saint Louis springs to mind.
 
While I am not as knowledgeable about elephant management as I am some other species, keep in mind that with any species, especially those with complex social structures (like elephants), transfers that occur will always need to consider what is best socially for the animals, in addition to genetics and breeding. A bull leaving Houston wouldn't necessarily mean that bull is being given a breeding recommendation, as instead it could be what is best socially for that particular animal, or as a way to enhance the social structure of another zoo's herd. Just something worth keeping in mind when discussing the potential of a particular animal transferring.
 
Neil chace said:
While I am not as knowledgeable about elephant management as I am some other species, keep in mind that with any species, especially those with complex social structures (like elephants), transfers that occur will always need to consider what is best socially for the animals, in addition to genetics and breeding. A bull leaving Houston wouldn't necessarily mean that bull is being given a breeding recommendation, as instead it could be what is best socially for that particular animal, or as a way to enhance the social structure of another zoo's herd. Just something worth keeping in mind when discussing the potential of a particular animal transferring.
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That is a very good point. Baylor very well may move from one bachelor holding to another. Being a social companion for an older cow is potentially a possibility, but I find that far less likely.
We also have to keep in mind that although it would be preferrable for Baylor to enter a breeding situation, there aren't exactly a plethora of facilities for him to go to. I don't think there's any facilities in need of new bulls other than ALS, and I truthfully cannot see them obtaining Baylor over a bull from Europe.
 
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