North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

Zoo-Lover-1-2-3 said:
Not sure if someone has already said this but what if the Houston Zoo did a matriline split and sent some to the LA Zoo? If I’m correct they are holding around 12 elephants which is a lot.
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A matriline split would be required very soon if Houston still wish to continue breeding from their cows at frequent intervals.

The best option would be Shanti's matriline. She's currently pregnant at the moment, and already has one daughter who's soon approaching reproductive age. Another daughter from her would definitely be beneficial if her matriline was to expand elsewhere.
 
This might sound a bit harsh, and as someone who once speculated a lot I already imagine there’s gonna be some people who are gonna say don’t call the kettle black or whatever but so be it.

The future of elephants at Los Angeles is so out there, there’s so many possibilities and I’m not saying this to be mean, but who knows what could happen there. They could bring in a breeding group from Europe, or from the U.S. somewhere or Canada. They could do a bachelor group. They could send Billy elsewhere or he could stay at Los Angeles. And I’m gonna say this about speculation. There have been many atimes and this even goes for myself, where I’ve been very critical of zoo decisions for elephant husbandry and while I regret it took me forever to figure it out, there are many things we don’t know behind the scenes that we don’t know. Here’s a good example with elephants.

I remember 3 even 2 years ago, that many people were laying into and this goes for myself, how the SSP, the AZA and many zoos were failing African Elephants in terms of breeding and that the situation wasn’t going to turn around. Well, 2 years later, there are more pregnancies than ever and I’m actually going to say this but there is another facility, that hasn’t even been talked about publicly including on zoochat but I learned let me say, was VERY good news in terms of the future for African elephants in the U.S. I’m not going to say anymore details than that, because that is for that facility’s place to say and not mine. But my point is, there are many things that happen behind the scenes that we don’t know. And I can say myself I was quick to judge at times when I shouldn’t have.
 
Jambo said:
A matriline split would be required very soon if Houston still wish to continue breeding from their cows at frequent intervals.

The best option would be Shanti's matriline. She's currently pregnant at the moment, and already has one daughter who's soon approaching reproductive age. Another daughter from her would definitely be beneficial if her matriline was to expand elsewhere.
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are you saying that as soon as shanties new daughter is born they wil possibly be moved
 
X213G said:
are you saying that as soon as shanties new daughter is born they wil possibly be moved
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No, it's just speculation on my behalf that this matriline will be the one transferring out. Obviously we have no confirmation this is happening, let alone which elephants and where too.

They would have to wait at least eighteen months before the calf could be transferred (in that hypothetical situation).
 
Zoo-Lover-1-2-3 said:
Not sure if someone has already said this but what if the Houston Zoo did a matriline split and sent some to the LA Zoo? If I’m correct they are holding around 12 elephants which is a lot.
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Houston won't be undertaking a split for 5+ years at least.
Of their two matrilines, Shanti's makes the most sense to send out and it was highly speculated that her and Joy would make the move to somewhere like LA or Tulsa soon.
However, Houston just got a new bull with the intent of breeding with Joy primarily. By AZA guidelines she won't be bred until next year, and then that's at least 3 years before her and a hypothetical calf would be transferred, likely alongside Shanti's calf.
While it's a possibility, Tina very likely wont live that long and LA will need new animals in relatively short order. While of course we can't guess how long an animal will live, I would hope LA would be proactive here and save themselves the negative press by bringing in new Elephants soon.
 
So what really are the possibilities for the LA zoo considering where elephants are right now in the US, Europe, and Canada? Chester zoo just sent away their breeding bull Aung Bo to Dublin zoo so is it possible to split up their herd and send some to LA since their is if I am correct no breeding happening their right now.
 
Zoo-Lover-1-2-3 said:
So what really are the possibilities for the LA zoo considering where elephants are right now in the US, Europe, and Canada? Chester zoo just sent away their breeding bull Aung Bo to Dublin zoo so is it possible to split up their herd and send some to LA since their is if I am correct no breeding happening their right now.
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I find it very unlikely that Chester Zoo would split up their herd. If we are talking about their females. Its Sundara and her 2 young daughters Indali and Riva. There is the older non breeding cow Maya but I doubt she will be move and most likely just live out her days at Chester. Ive read somewhere that Sundara might be pregnant, I don’t see the rush in getting a breeding bull if that is the case.
 
Zoo-Lover-1-2-3 said:
So what really are the possibilities for the LA zoo considering where elephants are right now in the US, Europe, and Canada? Chester zoo just sent away their breeding bull Aung Bo to Dublin zoo so is it possible to split up their herd and send some to LA since their is if I am correct no breeding happening their right now.
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No chance, they have no matriline to split. It's just Sundara and her two daughters (the oldest of which is only eight).
 
Zoo-Lover-1-2-3 said:
So what really are the possibilities for the LA zoo considering where elephants are right now in the US, Europe, and Canada? Chester zoo just sent away their breeding bull Aung Bo to Dublin zoo so is it possible to split up their herd and send some to LA since their is if I am correct no breeding happening their right now.
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I suspect wishful thinking really got the better part of you, my friend! Chester Zoo just send out their former breeding bull Aung Bo to Dublin to make way for an unrelated new bull to come in and let the herd grow and evolve further and will not send any of their current herd over to an US zoo. The bull move ex Chester Zoo and other moves relaiting to Dublin Zoo sending out a portion of their herd to the US were all made in accordance with the EEP Asiatic Elephant species coördinator's recommendations. Rest assured it is already known - yet not publicly announced - who will be the next breeding bull for Chester Zoo.


SIDE NOTE: Dublin Zoo just lost 0.2 elephants out of their herd due to EEHV. I doubt it that the EEP would now seriously consider more female elephants to transfer to the USA. I believe that with good cooperation the US part of the Asiatic elephant population already got a decent boost by importing 2 breeding groups of proven cow elephants (0.2 to Washington NZP, proven cow and daughter pair and 2.2 two proven cows ex Dublin Zoo and both their bull calves). These transfers were in full cooperation between both the TAG's and ex situ conservation breeding program species coordinators' on both sides of the Atlantic and I assume that is all that is going across the Pond for now.

Jambo said:
No chance, they have no matriline to split. It's just Sundara and her two daughters (the oldest of which is only eight).
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This is the ideal status for any Asiatic elephant breeding group! The EEP/EAZA has a strict policy to divide up herds now in individual matrilines per zoo facility.

Natural herd structure is in individual separate matrilines and through the luxury of ample breeding success we have learned that in large herds multiple matrilines in one herd inevatibaly lead to strife and separating even somewhat related herds is required. Other regions would do well to follow this example when enjoying ample breeding success with multiple matrilines within their herds.
 
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Kifaru Bwana said:
I suspect wishful thinking really got the better part of you, my friend! Chester Zoo just send out their former breeding bull Aung Bo to Dublin to make way for an unrelated new bull to come in and let the herd grow and evolve further and will not send any of their current herd over to an US zoo. The bull move ex Chester Zoo and other moves relaiting to Dublin Zoo sending out a portion of their herd to the US were all made in accordance with the EEP Asiatic Elephant species coördinator's recommendations. Rest assured it is already known - yet not publicly announced - who will be the next breeding bull for Chester Zoo.


SIDE NOTE: Dublin Zoo just lost 0.2 elephants out of their herd due to EEHV. I doubt it that the EEP would now seriously consider more female elephants to transfer to the USA. I believe that with good cooperation the US part of the Asiatic elephant population already got a decent boost by importing 2 breeding groups of proven cow elephants (0.2 to Washington NZP, proven cow and daughter pair and 2.2 two proven cows ex Dublin Zoo and both their bull calves). These transfers were in full cooperation between both the TAG's and ex situ conservation breeding program species coordinators' on both sides of the Atlantic and I assume that is all that is going across the Pond for now.


This is the ideal status for any Asiatic elephant breeding group! The EEP/EAZA has a strict policy to divide up herds now in individual matrilines per zoo facility.

Natural herd structure is in individual separate matrilines and through the luxury of ample breeding success we have learned that in large herds multiple matrilines in one herd inevatibaly lead to strife and separating even somewhat related herds is required. Other regions would do well to follow this example when enjoying ample breeding success with multiple matrilines within their herds.
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I suppose wishful thinking did get the better of me! I just hope that they give Billy the opportunity to breed and give Tina other female elephants to live with so she does not die just living with a bull elephant.
 
Zoo-Lover-1-2-3 said:
I suppose wishful thinking did get the better of me! I just hope that they give Billy the opportunity to breed and give Tina other female elephants to live with so she does not die just living with a bull elephant.
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I think breeding will be the zoo's priority. Unless Billy has lost fertility, something I cannot find any evidence for, the zoo will more than likely be trying to utilize his valuable genes. While there aren't any obvious choices for cows in Europe at the moment, I'm sure there's some kind of arrangement that could be made, especially in light of the decreased breeding within the EEP.
It wouldn't surprise me if both LA and Tulsa begin to make arrangements to bring in viable cows within the coming years. In an ideal world, LA should make this a priority as Billy's potential for breeding is only decreasing.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
I think breeding will be the zoo's priority. Unless Billy has lost fertility, something I cannot find any evidence for, the zoo will more than likely be trying to utilize his valuable genes. While there aren't any obvious choices for cows in Europe at the moment, I'm sure there's some kind of arrangement that could be made, especially in light of the decreased breeding within the EEP.
It wouldn't surprise me if both LA and Tulsa begin to make arrangements to bring in viable cows within the coming years. In an ideal world, LA should make this a priority as Billy's potential for breeding is only decreasing.
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Totally agree.
 
Brookfield Zoo's new masterplan, released today, calls for the addition of a 12.5-acre African elephant habitat as part of the first phase. While there's no information on what type of herd the zoo plans for, the concept art shows two bull elephants and a matriarchal herd. While there isn't a detailed timeline yet, one article quotes the zoo director saying "African elephants are all set to be featured at the zoo in the next 15 years".

Source here: Brookfield Zoo Chicago - Next Century Plan Key Projects
And here: Brookfield Zoo announces massive redevelopment, plans to 'disrupt' traditional zoo experience

With the direction recent births in the population have been, there is likely no shortage of possible zoos for a herd split that Brookfield can receive in a decade.
 
Neil chace said:
Brookfield Zoo's new masterplan, released today, calls for the addition of a 12.5-acre African elephant habitat as part of the first phase. While there's no information on what type of herd the zoo plans for, the concept art shows two bull elephants and a matriarchal herd. While there isn't a detailed timeline yet, one article quotes the zoo director saying "African elephants are all set to be featured at the zoo in the next 15 years".

Source here: Brookfield Zoo Chicago - Next Century Plan Key Projects
And here: Brookfield Zoo announces massive redevelopment, plans to 'disrupt' traditional zoo experience

With the direction recent births in the population have been, there is likely no shortage of possible zoos for a herd split that Brookfield can receive in a decade.
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The zoo plans to break ground on Gateway to Africa in 2026, and assuming construction takes two to three years (much like Omaha's African Grasslands, which started construction in 2014 and completed construction in 2017), it'll be clearer when they'll source elephants and where.
 
StoppableSan said:
The zoo plans to break ground on Gateway to Africa in 2026, and assuming construction takes two to three years (much like Omaha's African Grasslands, which started construction in 2014 and completed construction in 2017), it'll be clearer when they'll source elephants and where.
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Even if it's only five years from now, there is still a number of options of potential places a herd split can occur from. It all depends on how many calves are born until then- and which ones are female. I can think of at least five zoos which may need to split their herds in the near future. That said, being only 450 miles away, Brookfield is in an *extremely* convenient geographic location if Omaha decides a herd split is in their best interest.
 
Neil chace said:
Brookfield Zoo's new masterplan, released today, calls for the addition of a 12.5-acre African elephant habitat as part of the first phase. While there's no information on what type of herd the zoo plans for, the concept art shows two bull elephants and a matriarchal herd. While there isn't a detailed timeline yet, one article quotes the zoo director saying "African elephants are all set to be featured at the zoo in the next 15 years".

Source here: Brookfield Zoo Chicago - Next Century Plan Key Projects
And here: Brookfield Zoo announces massive redevelopment, plans to 'disrupt' traditional zoo experience

With the direction recent births in the population have been, there is likely no shortage of possible zoos for a herd split that Brookfield can receive in a decade.
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Absolutely wonderful news. With Omaha, Sedgwick and even the San Diego Safari Park housing multiple matrilines, it's doubtless that they'll have ample choices for cows down the line. Being designed to house young bulls at their natal facility for longer too will be of massive benefit.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Absolutely wonderful news. With Omaha, Sedgwick and even the San Diego Safari Park housing multiple matrilines, it's doubtless that they'll have ample choices for cows down the line. Being designed to house young bulls at their natal facility for longer too will be of massive benefit.
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Especially considering it is one of if not the largest exhibit for African elephants in North America being 12.45 acres, and that is not counting the rotational aspect of the enclosures which gives the elephants an additional 9.8 acres more space allowing them to potentially house a large family unit as well as a bachelor herd.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
Especially considering it is one of if not the largest exhibit for African elephants in North America being 12.45 acres, and that is not counting the rotational aspect of the enclosures which gives the elephants an additional 9.8 acres more space allowing them to potentially house a large family unit as well as a bachelor herd.
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It's wonderful to see a facility for Africans that reflects the quality of more modern Asian elephant exhibits. Nowadays it is becoming Asian elephant standard for breeding facilities be able to house multiple mature bulls/bachelors alongside a sizable breeding herd. And as more calves are born it only makes sense for this trend to reach into their African cousins. I can't think of a single existing facility right now with the ability to do this (I could be wrong though). All in all a lovely announcement and an exciting time for African elephant exhibit standards!
 
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