I’m not surprised! 2024 and 2025 will be really good years for African elephant births.
North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation
- Thread starter IndianRhino
- Start date
-
- Tags
- discussion elephant
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
There is no guarantee that all of the five young Sedgwick cows are actually pregnant, though I would expect maybe two or three of them to give birth in 2025.
not trying to speak for @IndianRhino but I don’t think he meant that or predicted that. He meant that in general outside of Sedgwick County Zoo.
Yazziel
Well-Known Member
With the announcement of Nolwazi and Amahle pregnancy and due 2024. I don’t believe they’re pregnancies are part of 10 elephants that we’re pregnant at the beginning of this year when they new Omaha director gave the announcement. As they were confirmed pregnant in May (maybe the already suspected given Mabu’s success). And we still have 2 more unconfirmed pregnancies expected for this year. Technically right now we have all 10.
Pregnancies and births 2023.
Lolly (WILDxWILD) gave birth to Mopani (Male) on 02MAR2023. Sire: Calle.
Mlilo (WILDxWILD) gave birth to Okubili (Male) on 26FED23. Sire: Tendaji.
Jayei (WILDxWILD) gave birth to a female calf on 06AUG2023. Sire is Calle.
Zahara (IvoryxAli) is due in October 2023. Sire is Calle or Titan by AI.
Due 2024
Renee (WILDxWILD) is due in Spring 2024. Sire is Titan by AI.
Litsemba (WILDxWILD) is due Spring 2024. Sire is Mabu.
Omma (Jayei x WILD) is due Frebruary/March 2024. Sire is Callee.
Nolwazi (WILDXWILD) and Amahle (Nolwazi x WILD) are due September/October 2024. Sire is Mabu.
Confirmed pregnant but unconfirmed due date
Nadirah (Donna x Jackson) is pregnant. Sire is Maclean.
Pregnancies and births 2023.
Lolly (WILDxWILD) gave birth to Mopani (Male) on 02MAR2023. Sire: Calle.
Mlilo (WILDxWILD) gave birth to Okubili (Male) on 26FED23. Sire: Tendaji.
Jayei (WILDxWILD) gave birth to a female calf on 06AUG2023. Sire is Calle.
Zahara (IvoryxAli) is due in October 2023. Sire is Calle or Titan by AI.
Due 2024
Renee (WILDxWILD) is due in Spring 2024. Sire is Titan by AI.
Litsemba (WILDxWILD) is due Spring 2024. Sire is Mabu.
Omma (Jayei x WILD) is due Frebruary/March 2024. Sire is Callee.
Nolwazi (WILDXWILD) and Amahle (Nolwazi x WILD) are due September/October 2024. Sire is Mabu.
Confirmed pregnant but unconfirmed due date
Nadirah (Donna x Jackson) is pregnant. Sire is Maclean.
they weren’t. The zoo didn’t find out the girls were pregnant at Fresno Chaffee Zoo until this May.
Last edited:
I didn’t realize or think about this much until now, but by 2024 there will be 3 more zoos in the United States that will have multigenerational herds (Fresno, Disneys Animal Kingdom, and Omaha).
Yazziel
Well-Known Member
That’s what I thought. That would mean there’s 4 more pregnancies who have not been announced.
Techincally they’re still 2 females due this year outside of Zahara too. But I still don’t know who those girls could be and there’s no point I don’t think in speculating about it because I have before and so far it’s still been no where.
Alright, I haven't come here often recently but I’m curious about everyone’s thoughts. Hogle is announcing where their 0.2 mother-daughter pair (Zuri and Christie) are going this Saturday and I am curious where you all think they’ll be sent. They’ve only hinted at it being an AZA facility but I can only think of 3 that have the space and don’t already have a breeding herd.
Here’s my thoughts…
First up I have Fresno(see current population below) they have a herd of 1.2 with two calves on the way. I don’t know if they’d want to risk herd dynamics by bringing in a new mother-daughter pair but with the urgency to breed Christie ASAP, there’s arguably no better bull for the job than Mabu(or Jackson but that’s Zuris's father). I don’t want to see any more Mabu babies but a pregnant cow at this point would seem to be the main priority.
Fresno Chaffee Zoo - Fresno, California, United States
1.0 Mabhulane (WILD × WILD) 1990.00.00
0.1 Nolwazi (WILD × WILD) 1994.00.00
0.1 Amahle (WILD × Nolwazi) 2009.00.00
Total: 1.2.0 (3)
Next up is Jacksonville. Like Fresno, they also have 1.2 however both cows are post-reproductive and their bull is much more valuable than most. AFAIK, with only one surviving offspring, this would be an ideal pairing and a great boost to Jacksonville’s program should Ali be a natural breeder. Nevertheless, I feel this would be one of the top contenders as there’s no need to worry about shuffling herd dynamics with no other breeding cows on site.
Jacksonville Zoo - Jacksonville, Florida, United States
0.1 Thandi (WILD × WILD) 1980.00.00
0.1 Sheena (WILD × WILD) 1983.00.00
1.0 Ali (WILD × WILD) 1991.00.00
Total: 1.2.0 (3)
My last pick is Maryland. Their current herd consists of 2.2. Two older cows, an older bull, and a teenage bull. With two unrepresented/unrelated bulls on site, there’s no better pairing I could think of especially if they were to use Tuffy for the first few rounds of breeding. Samson is only a teenager and has hopefully many more years ahead of him meaning any female calves of Tuffy’s could be paired with him in the future.
Maryland Zoo - Baltimore, Maryland, United States
0.1 Anna (WILD × WILD) 1975.00.00
0.1 Felix (WILD × WILD) 1983.00.00
1.0 Tuffy (WILD × WILD) 1983.00.00
1.0 Samson (Willie × Felix) 2008.03.19
Total: 2.2.0 (4)
Now as I finish writing this I also have a wild card. I’m not familiar with their facility so I am unsure how much more room they have but North Carolina could also be in the running. Their current herd consists of 2.4 with 3 post-reproductive cows, 1 post-reproductive bull, and 1 breeding-aged cow and bull. If someone with more knowledge of their program could chime in and confirm how much space they have then NC may have just as much a shot as the others.
North Carolina Zoo - Asheboro, North Carolina, United States
1.0 C'sar (WILD × WILD) 1974.00.00
0.1 Tonga (WILD × WILD) 1978.00.00
0.1 Rafiki (WILD × WILD) 1981.00.00
0.1 Nekhanda (WILD × WILD) 1988.00.00
0.1 Batir (Willie × Tonga) 2002.01.21
1.0 Louie (Bulwagi × Renee) 2003.04.30
Total: 2.4.0 (6)
Here’s my thoughts…
First up I have Fresno(see current population below) they have a herd of 1.2 with two calves on the way. I don’t know if they’d want to risk herd dynamics by bringing in a new mother-daughter pair but with the urgency to breed Christie ASAP, there’s arguably no better bull for the job than Mabu(or Jackson but that’s Zuris's father). I don’t want to see any more Mabu babies but a pregnant cow at this point would seem to be the main priority.
Fresno Chaffee Zoo - Fresno, California, United States
1.0 Mabhulane (WILD × WILD) 1990.00.00
0.1 Nolwazi (WILD × WILD) 1994.00.00
0.1 Amahle (WILD × Nolwazi) 2009.00.00
Total: 1.2.0 (3)
Next up is Jacksonville. Like Fresno, they also have 1.2 however both cows are post-reproductive and their bull is much more valuable than most. AFAIK, with only one surviving offspring, this would be an ideal pairing and a great boost to Jacksonville’s program should Ali be a natural breeder. Nevertheless, I feel this would be one of the top contenders as there’s no need to worry about shuffling herd dynamics with no other breeding cows on site.
Jacksonville Zoo - Jacksonville, Florida, United States
0.1 Thandi (WILD × WILD) 1980.00.00
0.1 Sheena (WILD × WILD) 1983.00.00
1.0 Ali (WILD × WILD) 1991.00.00
Total: 1.2.0 (3)
My last pick is Maryland. Their current herd consists of 2.2. Two older cows, an older bull, and a teenage bull. With two unrepresented/unrelated bulls on site, there’s no better pairing I could think of especially if they were to use Tuffy for the first few rounds of breeding. Samson is only a teenager and has hopefully many more years ahead of him meaning any female calves of Tuffy’s could be paired with him in the future.
Maryland Zoo - Baltimore, Maryland, United States
0.1 Anna (WILD × WILD) 1975.00.00
0.1 Felix (WILD × WILD) 1983.00.00
1.0 Tuffy (WILD × WILD) 1983.00.00
1.0 Samson (Willie × Felix) 2008.03.19
Total: 2.2.0 (4)
Now as I finish writing this I also have a wild card. I’m not familiar with their facility so I am unsure how much more room they have but North Carolina could also be in the running. Their current herd consists of 2.4 with 3 post-reproductive cows, 1 post-reproductive bull, and 1 breeding-aged cow and bull. If someone with more knowledge of their program could chime in and confirm how much space they have then NC may have just as much a shot as the others.
North Carolina Zoo - Asheboro, North Carolina, United States
1.0 C'sar (WILD × WILD) 1974.00.00
0.1 Tonga (WILD × WILD) 1978.00.00
0.1 Rafiki (WILD × WILD) 1981.00.00
0.1 Nekhanda (WILD × WILD) 1988.00.00
0.1 Batir (Willie × Tonga) 2002.01.21
1.0 Louie (Bulwagi × Renee) 2003.04.30
Total: 2.4.0 (6)
Last edited:
Fresno would surely be the favourite; especially as they've a) recently received a proven bull and b) have a small matriarchal herd and would benefit from additional females, especially once they begin welcoming calves.
Jacksonville have long been stagnant in regards to breeding at their facility. It's been hoped they would provide viable cows for Ali, but this has never eventuated. It would be good if Ali finally had cows to naturally breed with; but considering the fact that he isn't proven naturally and Jacksonville have sat on him and his potential for many many years now, I would be surprised if they finally made the move to acquire cows for him.
North Carolina is another chance. Louie was moved with the hope he would successfully breed with Batir, but considering this hasn't panned out, they may be looking for additional females to pair with him.
Fresno also has the benefit of location. Given the choice, the SSP and Hogle Zoo would both rather move the elephants to a relatively nearby facility than one on the entire other end of the country.
Hogle has stated that they will NOT announce where Zuri and Christie are going until they have arrived at their new home for security and safety reasons. I would not expect an announcement today.
I'm not expecting an announcement today. I am just curious as to what everyone's thoughts are about where they're going. My post may have come off that way however it was written at 2am so it's probably not worded the best but my question still stands lol
Given Christie's age, and that Zuri is in her prime (but will rapidly miss if not bred soon) for a first calf, my guess is somewhere with a proven bull. I would also suspect somewhere closer to Utah and not cross country.
From the list above, that really leaves Fresno as the most likely option.
A wild card I think would be Kansas City. They have had a desire to be a breeding herd for many years. They did bring in Tamani knowing their cows were post-reproductive. Tamani is fairly genetically valuable, but not proven. Kansas City is not a horrible drive from Salt Lake City. With 6 post-reproductive cows, not sure how the herd dynamics would be, but all are wild born without any daughters in herd.
Kansas City Zoo - Kansas City, Missouri, United States
0.1 Tattoo (WILD x WILD) 1978
0.1 Lady (WILD x WILD) 1968
0.1 Lea (WILD x WILD) 1978
0.1 Lois (WILD x WILD) 1978
0.1 Zoe (WILD x WILD) 1984
0.1 Megan (WILD x WILD) 1978
1.0 Tamani (Bulwagi x Ellie) 2005.10.17
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
Here are four strong contenders for where they will end up:
- Sedgwick County Zoo
- Dallas Zoo
- Fresno Chaffee Zoo
- Disney's Animal Kingdom
I personally would think Sedgwick is the best possible destination, though the other three are also viable options.
The proven breeding bull though at Sedgwick Callee is related to Zuri. They share the same father…
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
I am aware of that. They also have Titan though, who has sired one calf with at least one more on
the way. I know it was through AI, but that doesn't mean he can't also breed naturally.
Ok, I’m starting this speculation regarding the future of elephant breeding at Saint Louis Zoo on this threat to prohibit further speculation on the North American Asian Elephant population 2023 thread. Reasoning for this is due to the wake of Ranis sudden death who was one of 4 reproductive cows the zoo had.
replying to @Nile Hippo Expert on this quote you left here:
QUOTE="Nile Hippo Expert, post: 1497986, member: 19036"]Alternatively they can try artificially insemination on the three young STL girls, though with Rani's death there would still be no four-generation herd.[/QUOTE]
AI is HIGHLY invasive, expensive and natural breeding will be preferably better. Frankly it would be cheaper if Saint Louis would just get a new bull rather than trying artificial insemination to all 3 of the girls as AI is rarely successful.
replying to @Nile Hippo Expert on this quote you left here:
QUOTE="Nile Hippo Expert, post: 1497986, member: 19036"]Alternatively they can try artificially insemination on the three young STL girls, though with Rani's death there would still be no four-generation herd.[/QUOTE]
AI is HIGHLY invasive, expensive and natural breeding will be preferably better. Frankly it would be cheaper if Saint Louis would just get a new bull rather than trying artificial insemination to all 3 of the girls as AI is rarely successful.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
AI is HIGHLY invasive, expensive and natural breeding will be preferably better. Frankly it would be cheaper if Saint Louis would just get a new bull rather than trying artificial insemination to all 3 of the girls as AI is rarely successful.[/QUOTE]
It'll probably only be either a temporary breeding loan or a permanent swap with Raja.
Permanently keeping two mature bull elephants is no easy task at all, so that's the only way I can really see that happening. Nonetheless, I don't see a problem with borrowing another zoo's bull elephant for breeding.
It should be permanent. Raja has absolutely no reason now to be at Saint Louis. There’s no one for him to breed with, and a new bull should come to Saint Louis instead.