North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation
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I’m pretty sure they wouldn’t do anything. Tuffy is presumed sterile and Samson is the other cow’s son. It’s a non breeding herd. Of course, I don’t know the zoo’s long term plan is.
I would imagine that male Samson (b. 2008) will eventually leave the zoo for a facility where he would be needed for breeding.
I am afraid the current and fairly long term association of the 16-year old bull with his mother at the same facility is not particularly conducive to him becoming a well adjusted bull. The natural socialisation process would mean the cow would kick him out of her herd in their early teens. Bull Samson has well passed that stage.
I would like to see that eventually the Maryland Zoo makes an informed decision on what it wishes to be in the frame of the African Elephant AZA/SSP. ATM, indeed the adult pair, bull Tuffy (b. 1983) and cow Felix (b. 1983 as well) have been qualified as non-breeders.
Zoo-Lover-1-2-3
Well-Known Member
Can the Maryland zoo possibly hold a small breeding herd?
They have the current intention of becoming a bachelor facility once Felix passes however have not ruled out the potential of breeding should cows become available down the line.
Nile Hippo Expert
Well-Known Member
I personally think the strongest decision is for them to wait a few years to start a bachelor holding facility because of the lack of available bulls, which was the reason the Oakland Zoo decided to move Osh to Tennessee when they initially planned to keep a bachelor herd. However, fast forward a few years, this will be easily possible with the large number of young bull elephants in zoos right now getting older and soon to leave their herds. In the meantime, they could move Felix to another zoo or sanctuary where she can interact with other female elephants in her golden years and keep just the two bulls for a short time before starting with their larger bachelor herd. I also think they should consider attempting Samson for AI or temporarily loaning him to another zoo before moving him for good so they can see if and how he breeds.
Oakland Zoo in California transferred their (1.0) African elephant named Osh to The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee on October 16th (with him arriving on October 18th). The facility is no longer a holder of the species with details pertaining to the former exhibit being announced sometime in 2025.
2K views · 311 reactions | Osh's journey to Tennessee | Osh made it to Tennessee safe and sound
The journey from Oakland Zoo to The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee took 46 hours — leaving Oakland... | By Oakland Zoo | Facebook
Oakland Zoo's Last African Male Elephant, Osh, Moves to New Home at The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee | Oakland Zoo
2K views · 311 reactions | Osh's journey to Tennessee | Osh made it to Tennessee safe and sound
The journey from Oakland Zoo to The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee took 46 hours — leaving Oakland... | By Oakland Zoo | FacebookOakland Zoo's Last African Male Elephant, Osh, Moves to New Home at The Elephant Sanctuary in Tennessee | Oakland Zoo
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Yazziel
Well-Known Member
On the note of available bachelors I was at Disney Animal Kingdom this past week and did their Caring for Giants tour. There is a transport crate right outside the elephant barn, my guess is that Tsavo or Jabali might be headed out to create space for the calves due next year.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Has the approximate size/capacity of African Lion Safari's elephant holding been reported at all? With 18 females and the likelihood of most of those females breeding in the near future, surely they must be approaching a limit soon? I know they are far less transparent than traditional zoos but I am curious if there is any information out there.
Jonathan Petersson
Well-Known Member
African Lion Safari has 200 plus acres of pasture and woodland that the elephants have access to. The area they are lacking in currently is the barn size as it is a little less then 25,000 square feet but without a bull it definitely frees up some space. The park has big plans for the future of their elephant program which I don't want to comment on until they have announced it as it is quite controversial. As far as pregnancy's go the park does not currently have a bull to breed from but I would expect AI to be used quite a bit in the coming future.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Interesting!
I do have to say I would be remarkably surprised if ALS transitioned to using AI rather than bringing in a new bull. No one can deny that the facility's incredible breeding record is due to having an onsite bull to naturally breed their females.There are an abundance of bulls that ALS could import both in Europe and the US (White Oak for instance has a plethora). Is there a particular reason why you think they'll look to AI or does that reason have to do with the yet-to-be announced plans?
Well, the 200 acres of woodland and pastures sound impressing, but the truth is that none of it is fenced and only acessable to the elephants under control of the keepers who need to herd them and take care that none walks away too far. It`s also only possible for those who can be controlled in free contact and only when the keepers have the time.
The fenced enclosure that is visible for the public is super small, with little more then 1/4 acre (1.200 m²)! There are 2 more fenced paddocks behind this one on-show enclosure, but both are hardly visible for the visitors and they are even SMALLER. That`s horrific. My understanding is that there may be one additional paddock fenced with hotwire that zoo visitors can see from the train, but it`s also super small. Someone I know visited the park a few months ago and do you want to know how many elephants he saw?! Two in the on-show paddock and 3 more in the off-show paddocks (hardly visible because off-show, LOL). He was super disapointed. How is that possible? They have 18 elephants including a lot of calves and I am sure the visitors would love to see them, but apparently they have no interest to show them to the visitors.
Their breeding record is impressive, but the rest of their program and facility is not. That they have less then 1 acre of securely fenced outdoor space if you count all 3 paddocks together is horrendous in my opinion. Every city zoo in the US would be constantly harressed by AR groups for keeping so many elephants under such bad conditions, and rightly so.
The fenced enclosure that is visible for the public is super small, with little more then 1/4 acre (1.200 m²)! There are 2 more fenced paddocks behind this one on-show enclosure, but both are hardly visible for the visitors and they are even SMALLER. That`s horrific. My understanding is that there may be one additional paddock fenced with hotwire that zoo visitors can see from the train, but it`s also super small. Someone I know visited the park a few months ago and do you want to know how many elephants he saw?! Two in the on-show paddock and 3 more in the off-show paddocks (hardly visible because off-show, LOL). He was super disapointed. How is that possible? They have 18 elephants including a lot of calves and I am sure the visitors would love to see them, but apparently they have no interest to show them to the visitors.
Their breeding record is impressive, but the rest of their program and facility is not. That they have less then 1 acre of securely fenced outdoor space if you count all 3 paddocks together is horrendous in my opinion. Every city zoo in the US would be constantly harressed by AR groups for keeping so many elephants under such bad conditions, and rightly so.
Jonathan Petersson
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Please do not make assumptions about their program without knowing the whole picture. The woodland and pastures are all fenced and the elephant are monitored by the keepers the whole time they are in them which can be anywhere from two to seven hours a day depending on the weather and other conditions. How would the keepers not have the time it is there job to care for the elephants and this is a key part of their program? All of the individuals at ASL are worked under free contact and have access to the pastures it is not just limited to certain animals. There are 5 paddocks and the barn that the elephants spend time in when they are not out in the larger spaces. I think you answered your own question in that last part as well. Those elephants were off-display in the 200 acres of land that the elephants get to roam. I do have some qualms with their program don't get me wrong, none of which aligned with yours, but overall they are a very impressive facility and is doing some revolutionary work in elephant research and free contact management.
Yet-to-be announced plans but it would not shock me if they brought in a new bull as well.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
They've been wanting to import a bull from overseas (Europe, I believe?) prior to Covid.
The woodland and pastures are not fenced which is why they need to be supervised while out there.
Jonathan Petersson
Well-Known Member
There is a perimeter fence around the area in case an elephant were to spook however it is not strong enough to hold them any more than a last resort and yes the elephants are always monitored while out there.
Eh, I mean there’s a perimeter fence around the park itself but not one specific to the elephants. The fence itself is also doesn’t unfortunately encompass the whole park but also there isn’t a need for one except for regulation or licensing as the herds very rarely wander far from eyesight.
Are you seriously telling me that elephant keepers in ALS don`t have the same chores as in all other zoos, like cleaning, preparing food and enrichment items, doing training and heakth checks/treatments, paperwork and facility maintainment? The keepers I know do a huge part of this work while the elephants are outside and don`t need supervision. Plus elephant keepers often have to care for other species as well. Having to constantly watch a herd of 18 (!!!) adds a gigantic workload.
And that for just a few hours outside every day - a day has 24 hours, and elephants sleep only a few hours every night. Even the maximum of 7 hours out leaves them with 17 hours inside or in these small, barren paddocks that the visitors can see. The modern way of elephant husbandry gives elephants free acess to inside and outside areas 24/7 (or at least 22/7, considering there will usually be some medical training/ health checks every day). That`s not possible in ALS, and that`s a huge deficit.
And that the keepers who watch and herd the elephants outside need to be able to handle them all in free contact makes the whole thing so much more complicated. I don`t know how long it takes until a new keeper can work with all 18 - or at least most of them? Years!? Having staff that is virually irreplaceable is a nightmare for every employer, and having a whole herd of 18 elephants whose wellbeing depends on having a certain number of specifically trained and qualified keepers on side every day for such basic stuff as being able to go out for just a few hours every day is irresponsible.
As is having keepers work with a herd of 18 elephants in free contact, by the way. I have seen a lot of keepers interact with elephants in free contact in dozends of zoos in europe in the last 2 decades, including those who spoke very highly of Charlie Grey (incl. Whipsnade, Woburn and Twycross in the UK). And I have seen so much "rough" bullhook use and military-style elephant training that the thought of so many young elephants still being "trained" (or should I say "abused") in free contact makes me sick. It`s an outdated, cruel and dangerous method, especially when used on young, zooborn elephants who need to be teached that the keeper is always the boss. It may work better (and without so much brutality) on older females who were "broken in" in Asia before arriving in a zoo, but not with so many zoo-born calves. The same thing happened again and again in Zoos in the last decades - zoo-born elephants growing up and becoming aggressive against their keepers. You say all 18 are out in the pastures every day - well, that can change any day. And I am very sure they will have "accidents" and elephants becoming dangerous, sooner or later. You can only beat them so much, some will fight back until a kepper dies.
But since ALS is one f the very few facilities left in North America and Europe where elephants are managed in free contact, I guess those who miss the "good old days" will continue to praise Charlie Grey and his "accomplishments", regardless how substandart his faclity and his way of elephant management is.
A Bold New Strategy for AZA’s Elephant Populations
An interesting article with some interesting tidbits. Most notably, the tenets of the "paradigm shift of elephants in zoos" and the following statement:
“In my view, the greatest success of the strategy is the commitment to collective interest. The path of population decline we were on was driven at least in part by a history of putting individual interests first,” said Craig Hoover, executive vice president at AZA. “The elephant strategy turns that notion on its head, empowers decision-makers to put community interests first, and points us toward a more sustainable future. That future is still far from certain, but early indications are heartening. Leaders in the AZA community are already making difficult decisions for their facilities individually, with an eye toward larger gains for the broader community. That collective interest will be the key to our success.”
I'm assuming those leaders would be facilities like Oakland, Knoxville and Louisville to name a few, but it's a good mindset to have nonetheless.
An interesting article with some interesting tidbits. Most notably, the tenets of the "paradigm shift of elephants in zoos" and the following statement:
“In my view, the greatest success of the strategy is the commitment to collective interest. The path of population decline we were on was driven at least in part by a history of putting individual interests first,” said Craig Hoover, executive vice president at AZA. “The elephant strategy turns that notion on its head, empowers decision-makers to put community interests first, and points us toward a more sustainable future. That future is still far from certain, but early indications are heartening. Leaders in the AZA community are already making difficult decisions for their facilities individually, with an eye toward larger gains for the broader community. That collective interest will be the key to our success.”
I'm assuming those leaders would be facilities like Oakland, Knoxville and Louisville to name a few, but it's a good mindset to have nonetheless.
Frankie_number_1_fan
Well-Known Member
Glad to see it acknowledged that there's some management problems within AZA holders and that efforts are being taken to reverse course so to speak. Currently it seems that tackling potential phase-out facilities is the goal, but hopefully this means we will see more bull transfers within both populations (especially the African) so that breeding can get a much needed kick in the pants.