North American Asian and African Elephant Populations: Discussion and Speculation

HawkAlot said:
Between all the controversy surrounding their incident in 2019, the proposed move to Ft Worth in 2020, and the ever looming bills re. elephant captivity/breeding in Canada - I sincerely hope that ALS doesn't do any mother/daughter splitting on the grounds of potential further PR disaster... besides all the other obvious reasons. Even herd/matrilline splitting at this point... while potentially necessary... I can't see that going over well in the court of public opinion.
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You'd think they'd want to steer clear of controversy, but it seems its the natural setting for them despite their stellar breeding record. Unless there are some social complications that we are unaware of, it would be relatively simple (in theory) to move Lily and Emily's lines and then focus on Natasha's. She already has four daughters and two granddaughters onsite and would be a perfect way to continue ALS's braggings of multi-generational births in a way that the other two matrilines can't.
LA and Tulsa are the only current facilities able to take on new cows (most likely). LA could Lily and her daughters as they have more space and Tulsa could take on Emily and Maya. Seems a natural split that could easily be explained away since none of the mature cows are related in any way and would in the wild be seperated in their own groupings anyway.
 
ZCChip said:
In any case ALS better hurry and move the cows across the border to prevent the tariffs in January. It will be difficult for at least four years. . LA does need viable cows for Billy but is their facility big enough? It is also plausible that Shanti in Houston may move at some point to provide room for the other maternal group. Tulsa is in the proximity.
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LA has a very spacious facility that is definitely big enough to support a breeding group. They've been wanting to bring in cows ever since they rennovated their facility but due to their older cows they didn't consider it. By all means they should be looking into that now.

I find Tulsa a slightly unlikely location for Shanti's line now. Mainly because they have five non-breeding individuals and I question if they have the space to breed multiple cows at the moment. Their facility is massive, but they would have to manage three mature bulls presumably completly seperate alongside socially stunted geriatric cows and breeding individuals. They would be much better suited for just a mother-daughter pair until more of their current animals pass away imo.
I think San Antonio is a plausible facility for them once it is completed, as Houston hasn't even offered the inkling of splitting their herd.
 
Re. the news regarding ALS's acquisition of a bull earlier this year.

I recently created a population list for the European population and have utilised this to determine potential candidates. I scoured over countless social media posts to verify whether the said bulls where still at the facility. Obviously the term 'earlier this year' was used, so I ruled out all the potential bulls who were recently posted on their facilities socials. I also ruled out any bulls either too young (under the age of five) or too old (over the age of 40) and those who recently arrived to the said facility.

As a result, the following twelve bulls were left unaccounted for:

1.0 Sang Raja (24/03/1999) Chawang x Sri Nandong

1.0 La Min Kyaw (15/03/2016) Bindu x Shu Thu Zar

1.0 Thambi (22/12/2016) Nikolai x Saphira

1.0 Ta Wan (19/09/2017) Po Chin x Khaing Hnin Hnin

1.0 Voi Nam (05/04/2002) Mekong x Trinh

1.0 Edgar (01/01/2016) Ankhor x Kewa

1.0 Letsongmon (06/06/2005) Naing Thein x Htoo Kin Aye

1.0 Myo Set Kuang (07/08/2005) Radza x Mingalar Oo

1.0 Nuka (11/05/2010) Nikolai x Farina

1.0 Thuya (15/07/2013) Radza x Htoo Yin Aye

1.0 Dimas (15/03/2010) Ankhor x Cynthia

1.0 Gabi (10/12/2005) Emmett x Tamar

1.0 Aung Naing Lay (09/11/1997) Naing Thien x Yu Zin

The three bulls in red text are related to some of ALS's cows so can potentially be ruled out in that aspect. 1.0 Dimas highlighted in Orange is also half Sumatran, so he can perhaps be ruled out as well. That would leave eight bulls in total. Five of which are over the age of nineteen.

That leaves three prime aged candidates;

1.0 La Min Kyaw (15/03/2016) Bindu x Shu Thu Zar, at Pont Scorff

1.0 Thuya (15/07/2013) Radza x Htoo Yin Aye, at Veszprem

1.0 Edgar (01/01/2016) Ankhor x Kewa, at Leipzig
 
We can probably rule out any bulls over the age of 20. Once they're that age their size makes it drastically harder to fly overseas.
Nuka, last I heard, is going to Diergaarde Blijdorp so I he's out of the picture.
Ta Wan just got to Zoo Augsburg this year and there is intent to transfer a mature bull there so I doubt they'd move him again so soon.

I do think the bulls you mentioned are strong candidates. Thuya being a Radza son, would be happily handed off by the EEP. La Min Kyaw similarly has many relatives and would be another easy send off for Europe's population. Edgar is one of the only bachelor bulls remaining at his natal facility in Europe, so his move would not only free up space at Leipzig but also save a bachelor spot.
 
Yassa said:
Edgar and Voi Nam were still in Leipzig in November 2024. And I am not yet convinced this news that a bull from Europe has already arrived in ALS is correct….
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The person that posted it appeared to be Canadian/at least frequented the area. And I can't really see how it would be a typo considering the contexr of the original message, but who knows. I did reach out for clarification but haven't heard back yet. It would be very onbrand for ALS to import a new bull ASAP considering looming laws in Canada that would snub their program, getting their younger cows pregnant asap is a doubtless goal.
Unfortunately this may be one of the scenarios where we won't get clarification until they open to the public again.
 
Yassa said:
Edgar and Voi Nam were still in Leipzig in November 2024. And I am not yet convinced this news that a bull from Europe has already arrived in ALS is correct….
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I am with Yassa here I think there was a misunderstanding due to African Lion Safari wanting a European bull for the last couple years. I could be wrong as the park is very private with births, deaths, and transfers but it just does not seem accurate to me. When they announced the births of Abby and Olivia in July the park stated that they had 18 elephants which would be the following: George, Onyx, Jenny, Lilly, Natasha, Piccolo, Opal, Emily, Nellie, Hannah, Anna May, Rose, Luna, Sunita, Imke, Maya, Abigail, Olivia. This would set a time frame of the import between July to November at the very latest. With nothing being heard out of any European zoo transferring a bull out this year I just can't find enough evidence to support the claim.
 
Jonathan Petersson said:
I am with Yassa here I think there was a misunderstanding due to African Lion Safari wanting a European bull for the last couple years. I could be wrong as the park is very private with births, deaths, and transfers but it just does not seem accurate to me. When they announced the births of Abby and Olivia in July the park stated that they had 18 elephants which would be the following: George, Onyx, Jenny, Lilly, Natasha, Piccolo, Opal, Emily, Nellie, Hannah, Anna May, Rose, Luna, Sunita, Imke, Maya, Abigail, Olivia. This would set a time frame of the import between July to November at the very latest. With nothing being heard out of any European zoo transferring a bull out this year I just can't find enough evidence to support the claim.
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I think all we can do right now is wait. With ALS being such a non-transparent facility anything could be possible. It is a little out of the blue, perhaps the user even had mistaken Johnson's export for an import! Either way, unless I get a response or someone else knows anything, we probably won't know for sure til spring.
 
Jonathan Petersson said:
I am with Yassa here I think there was a misunderstanding due to African Lion Safari wanting a European bull for the last couple years. I could be wrong as the park is very private with births, deaths, and transfers but it just does not seem accurate to me. When they announced the births of Abby and Olivia in July the park stated that they had 18 elephants which would be the following: George, Onyx, Jenny, Lilly, Natasha, Piccolo, Opal, Emily, Nellie, Hannah, Anna May, Rose, Luna, Sunita, Imke, Maya, Abigail, Olivia. This would set a time frame of the import between July to November at the very latest. With nothing being heard out of any European zoo transferring a bull out this year I just can't find enough evidence to support the claim.
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Are Canadian import permits not public domain like US? Often imports for US zoos (any species) are found in government documents in public domain before any announcement by any zoo is made.
 
MidwestFan said:
Are Canadian import permits not public domain like US? Often imports for US zoos (any species) are found in government documents in public domain before any announcement by any zoo is made.
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I believe they are, we knew about Johnsons' move months before it happened so I would think the same would apply to any imports.
 
Mr.Ivory said:
I believe they are, we knew about Johnsons' move months before it happened so I would think the same would apply to any imports.
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Johnson's import most Zoochat members learned about from Columbus' application to import not to Canada's application to export at least from what I have read on here.

MidwestFan said:
Are Canadian import permits not public domain like US? Often imports for US zoos (any species) are found in government documents in public domain before any announcement by any zoo is made.
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I'm not sure I have reached out to some friends in Canada to see if they can help me find out anything more about this once I hear back I'll make sure to write up a message.
 
Canadas import permits are public but also because they would be importing an Asian elephant which also requires a cites permit you’d be able to find it through them as well.

As for a split of herds LA is out of the picture due to legal constraints so it’d need to be Tulsa or another facility for new cows to go to. San Antonio will be on board for Asians within the next 10 years which will be ample time for a split it they go that route. They could also go to a place like Little Rock should they opt to renovated their exhibit and Nashville would love to get elephants back as well but doesn’t have a guarantee they’d have animals to move in so are hesitant. Not to mention, although Brookfield wants Africans if they couldn’t get their hands on any I’m 100% confident they’d swap for Asian’s.

As for any bills banning elephants in Canada. Charlie and his keepers find it highly unlikely such bill would pass and if it did are confident they could get grandfathered in but have a plan should they not and it moved to be outlawed.
 
Frankie_number_1_fan said:
Do those legal constraints prevent LA from obtaining new elephants at all or just imports? It would be a massive shame if it is the former.
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Curious what the legal constraints are for LA?

Also, appears from Canada thread for African Lion Safari that the physical presence of an imported bull was speculative and not confirmed.
 
MidwestFan said:
Curious what the legal constraints are for LA?

Also, appears from Canada thread for African Lion Safari that the physical presence of an imported bull was speculative and not confirmed.
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That clears thing up, I was very confused out how this "elephant" arrived completely under the radar from everyone including the park itself. There should be a new bull coming to African Lion eventually as was planned pre-COVID but he is definitely not at the park yet.
 
Considering it's been determined that any import (or plans for one) would've theoretically been made public via the need for a permit application, I think it is indeed safe to say the bull has not arrived yet.

From the wording described in the thread, it seemed to more so indicate the intention to acquire a bull from Europe. Seems there may have been a misunderstanding!
 
Jambo said:
Considering it's been determined that any import (or plans for one) would've theoretically been made public via the need for a permit application, I think it is indeed safe to say the bull has not arrived yet.

From the wording described in the thread, it seemed to more so indicate the intention to acquire a bull from Europe. Seems there may have been a misunderstanding!
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Yep seems to just be a misunderstanding! It is good to know that they still intend to aquire a bull, and I imagine it will be soon since there appears to be no indication of splitting the cows.
 
I’m bringing this up again since it has been said that apparently Luna had a miscarriage. But this blog still says that theres two calves on the way due in 2025. I guess well wait and see. Look at Nadirah after confirming her pregnancy on the show the park went radio silent all the way up to Corra’s birth.

Disney Food Blog on Instagram: "BABY ELEPHANT CORRA in Animal Kingdom just turned ONE YEAR OLD!!! 1️⃣ We’ll all enjoy a mini mango pie in your honor today, Corra! Head on over to ride Kilimanjaro Safari in Disney’s Animal Kingdom so you can catch a glimpse of Corra and wish her a happy birthday! Oh, and in case you need some more happy news, Animal Kingdom is expecting two MORE baby elephants in 2025‼️ Cuteness overload!!! "
 
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