North American Asian Elephant Population 2021

[Elephantelephant]

Since the cows were all living at Ringling prior to transfer, it could be possible that some may be pregnant already when they arrived. Since gestation is so long, it would have made sense to expose the cows to bulls prior to transfer if they intend on continuing in the SSP breeding program.

I don't know what their plan is or whether they did it, but I believe they are trying to do their best.

 

[Elephantelephant]

But only 12 were transferred. The article mentions there are two sets of full sisters. However, in the list above, there are three sets of full sisters. Piper, the youngest is 8, and she is the only 8-year-old, so she has definitely been transferred. This means that one of the following 5 females either passed away at Ringling or is still there awaiting transfer.

• Angelica
• Sara
• Mable
• Asha
• April

From people who are against captive elephant breeding, according to a report they received from White Oak, which elephants are there moving, these are these names:
Piper
April
Mable
Myrtle
Asha
Sara
Angelica
Kelly Ann
Bonnie
Juliette
Luna
Tonka

As I noticed, Shirley is missing. Let's hope she's still alive and they have a reason (for example, she's highly pregnant).

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

So after some quick research, the youngest 13 females that Ringling owned are aged 8-38 years old. So we can assume they're the females who are now at White Oak.

• Tonka
• Luna
• Juliette
• Bonnie
• Shirley
• Kelly Ann
• Angelica
• Sara
• Asha
• Mable
• Aree
• April
• Piper

But only 12 were transferred. The article mentions there are two sets of full sisters. However, in the list above, there are three sets of full sisters. Piper, the youngest is 8, and she is the only 8-year-old, so she has definitely been transferred. This means that one of the following 5 females either passed away at Ringling or is still there awaiting transfer.

• Angelica
• Sara
• Mable
• Asha
• April

I wonder if possibly White Oak moved the reproductive females first and are going to acquire a bull to breed them before the rest of the herd arrives. Just a thought.

Anyone have any serious idea which elephants are left at Ringling's for now?

Would it be unlikely that the older elephants and those post reproductive will not move from Ringling's?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

There is no Myrtle in the list made by our esteemed US forumster @ElephantEnthousiast on the status of Asian elephants in North American zoos. It would have to be Aree. It seems that this Myrtle is the clear missing link? She is named specifically by curator Eric Newby ....

See video link: Former circus elephants get spacious new home in Florida


I just copy in the data set to visualise things (I do hope you don't mind me doing so):

Center for Elephant Conservation - Polk City, Florida, United States
(stayed behind????)
0.1 Shirley (Vance × Mala) 1995.02.19 – 26 BR
0.1 Aree (Charlie × Mala) 2005.04.21 - 16
Total: 0.2 (2)

White Oak (arrived ex Ringling's May 2021)
0.1 Tonka (Hugo or Vance × Minyak) 1983.08.23 X - 38
0.1 Luna (Hugo or Vance × Josky) 1984.01.01 X - 37
0.1 Juliette (Pete × Icky) 1992.12.30 X - 28
0.1 Bonnie (Vance × Sid) 1994.10.29 X - 26
0.1 Kelly Ann (Vance × Sally) 1996.01.01 X - 25
0.1 Angelica (Charlie × Icky) 1997.06.23 X - 23
0.1 Sara (Charlie × Icky) 2001.04.16 X - 20
0.1 Asha (Charlie × Alana) 2002.03.05 X - 19
0.1 Myrtle (????) X
0.1 Mable (Romeo × Shirley) 2006.04.06 X - 15
0.1 April (Charlie × Alana) 2010.04.03 X - 11
0.1 Piper (Romeo × Shirley) 2012.08.13 X - 8
Total: 0.12 (12)

 

[Hyak_II]

As stated by others, White Oak will 100% be continuing to breed the elephants.

Also the re Mexican circus bull rescue, like many other bulls in circuses, he is more than likely castrated, and therefore a non-option for breeding.

 

[nczoofan]

As stated by others, White Oak will 100% be continuing to breed the elephants.

Also the re Mexican circus bull rescue, like many other bulls in circuses, he is more than likely castrated, and therefore a non-option for breeding.

I feel like they are just keeping that on the down low right now. Rightfully so given the media attention.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Did Ringling suspend breeding elephants after 2012? Or this more a reflection of the old bulls no longer breeding and old cows being post reproductive?

Anyone can clarify F Myrtle's stats in the Ringling herd?

 

[Jaxton]

It seems that this Myrtle is the clear missing link?

Anyone can clarify F Myrtle's stats in the Ringling herd?

This article published by The Florida Times-Union states that Myrtle is 16 years old. Aree is the only former Ringling female who is 16. I am positive that they're the same animal.

The article also stated that at least one bull will be a part of the next group of animals to arrive. All 8 males are being considered for the move.

White Oak Conservation welcomes home retired Ringling circus elephants

 

[Elephantelephant]

Did Ringling suspend breeding elephants after 2012? Or this more a reflection of the old bulls no longer breeding and old cows being post reproductive?

Anyone can clarify F Myrtle's stats in the Ringling herd?

I think the end of elephant breeding was due to the fact that Vance is suspected of TB and was the main breeder. Another breeder is Charlie, there is no mention of him, I think he probably died. If you look closely, Vance bred until 1995. Since then, Charlie has been the father of all calves, but in 2016, Vance became the father of Kelly Ann again. He was then removed from the breeding on suspicion of TB. And the other bulls probably did not breed. But until 2010, Charlie was used, many his offsprings were born. Then came the end. Indeed, everything suggests that he died, but I wish so that it isn't so .

But everything is just my speculation, they are not substantiated by anything.

As for Myrtle, it's probably Aree.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

This article published by The Florida Times-Union states that Myrtle is 16 years old. Aree is the only former Ringling female who is 16. I am positive that they're the same animal.

The article also stated that at least one bull will be a part of the next group of animals to arrive. All 8 males are being considered for the move.

White Oak Conservation welcomes home retired Ringling circus elephants

It is a subscription based feature article. It is wishful thinking that any of us will pay every sour dollar for a peek in. Can someone sort of quote the main brief of the article here (without infringing on copyright)?

 

[Yassa]

Kelly Ann was born in 1996. Vance hasnt bred in many years. And Ringling had enough young bulls, so they could have continued breeding from 2012 onwards if they had wanted. The fact that thy didnt means that now, it is most likely too late for many of the females (for example Bonnie, Sara, Angelica, Kelly Ann and Asha). I guess Ringling stopped breeding because they no longer needed elephants for the show and wanted to keep the costs down.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

The onset of reproductive senescence by estimation leaves that conclusion rather very likely. There may be a very slim chance that a Sara and Asha might yet produce a calf, but that window is rather tight ...

Given the stats within the North American/AZA SSP population one is inclined to point to the forehead .... (enufgh said). I'm honestly hoping that miracles will happen and suddenly a few more cow elephants of reproductive age will come the AZA/SSP program way. Now that some good overseas cooperation seems to be going, it may be more likely there could be transcontinental transfers. Fingers crossed!

One can honestly say, it is good that White Oak and the new owners stepped in to advance the transfer of the Ringling elephants to Yulee, FL. A move to within the AZA/SSP has been a long way coming.

 

[Jonfla]

The onset of reproductive senescence by estimation leaves that conclusion rather very likely. There may be a very slim chance that a Sara and Asha might yet produce a calf, but that window is rather tight ...

Given the stats within the North American/AZA SSP population one is inclined to point to the forehead .... (enufgh said). I'm honestly hoping that miracles will happen and suddenly a few more cow elephants of reproductive age will come the AZA/SSP program way. Now that some good overseas cooperation seems to be going, it may be more likely there could be transcontinental transfers. Fingers crossed!

One can honestly say, it is good that White Oak and the new owners stepped in to advance the transfer of the Ringling elephants to Yulee, FL. A move to within the AZA/SSP has been a long way coming.

The original press release from White Oak stated that Mysore and a few other elderly animals would remain in Polk County.

 

[Jaxton]

Kelly Ann was born in 1996. Vance hasnt bred in many years. And Ringling had enough young bulls, so they could have continued breeding from 2012 onwards if they had wanted. The fact that thy didnt means that now, it is most likely too late for many of the females (for example Bonnie, Sara, Angelica, Kelly Ann and Asha). I guess Ringling stopped breeding because they no longer needed elephants for the show and wanted to keep the costs down.

The onset of reproductive senescence by estimation leaves that conclusion rather very likely. There may be a very slim chance that a Sara and Asha might yet produce a calf, but that window is rather tight ...

I personally disagree. I would argue that many of the Ringling females you listed have a decent chance of reproducing in the future. Many elephant experts have agreed that 24 years old is the cut-off age of eligible first-time mothers. Angelica, Sara, Asha, Myrtle, Mable, April, and Piper all fall under 24 years old.

I crunched the numbers and the average age of a first time Asian Elephant mother in North America is 18.51. Tonka, Luna, Juliette, Bonnie, and Kelly Ann are all past 24. Note that both Bonnie and Angelica have both calved before. It may have been years ago, but both females are young and will likely breed again. I think that the birth interval would be the least of White Oak’s problems. The longest birth interval in North America is 13.17 years by Whimpy. She gave birth to Natasha in 1994 and Val in 2007. Val was born healthy and note that her mother was 37.34 years old at her birth.

Tonka, Luna, Juliette, and Kelly Ann will never reproduce, their birthing windows have all closed and it would be unhealthy for them to breed. But I firmly believe that Bonnie, Angelica, Sara, Asha, Myrtle, Mable, April, and Piper are all eligible breeders and I hope that White Oak takes advantage of that.

 

[IndianRhino]

Also the re Mexican circus bull rescue, like many other bulls in circuses, he is more than likely castrated, and therefore a non-option for breeding.

According to the Elephant Database, he is castrated. However, also according to the Elephant Database he is the son of Vance so if that is true, he has many relatives in the U.S. already.

Big Boy, an Asian elephant at Culiacan Zoo

 

[Elephantelephant]

Kelly Ann was born in 1996. Vance hasnt bred in many years. And Ringling had enough young bulls, so they could have continued breeding from 2012 onwards if they had wanted. The fact that thy didnt means that now, it is most likely too late for many of the females (for example Bonnie, Sara, Angelica, Kelly Ann and Asha). I guess Ringling stopped breeding because they no longer needed elephants for the show and wanted to keep the costs down.

Oh, I'm sorry, I don't know why I thought she was born in 2016. That means Vance was out of the breeding a long time ago. It is possible that they decided to stop breeding. I guess you're right. So maybe Charlie's still alive and well. This theory arose only from that nonsensical mistake in Kelly Ann's age.

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

My comments were made over nulliparous Asha and Sara only and I assume you will agree they need to be bred ASAP. The earlier a good sexually mature or proven bull comes in the better.

Both Anjelica and Bonnie are more than likely to breed again, if they have bred previously.

It is interesting you saying age 24 being cut off date as I think European managers quote different more conservative stats for safe birthing in nulliparous females and the onset of reproductive ailments preventing breeding, conception or calving or certainly making it less likely without any medical issues or mishaps.

All other younger nulliparous females do stand some good chance to become succesful breeders, but again imperative a proven bull comes in soon.

I am not sure how far off phase 2 building work on the elephant facility has progressed. Anyone? As they have indicated at least one bull will come in next.

 

[Mai Thai]

Here is the list of all elephants that remain at the Center for Elephant Conservation. If any of them have died it is unknown due to the lack of information about them.

Total: 24(7.17)

0.1 Alana 1976-00-00
0.1 Aree (Charlie x Mala) 2005-04-21
0.1 Asia 1968-00-00
0.1 Aussan 1957-00-00
0.1 Baby 1961-00-00
0.1 Bangko 1976-00-00
1.0 Barack (Doc x Bonnie) 2009-01-19
1.0 Charlie 1973-00-00
0.1 Cora (Thonglaw x Rosy) 1965-12-03
0.1 Emma 1971-00-00
1.0 Gunther (Charlie x Mala) 2001-11-18
0.1 Icky ll 1978-00-00
1.0 Irvin (Charlie x Alana) 2005-06-01
0.1 Louie 1966-00-00
0.1 Mala 1970-00-00
0.1 Mysore ll 1948-00-00
1.0 Ozzie (Charlie x Emma) 1999-08-16
1.0 P.T. (Charlie x Josky) 2002-05-21
0.1 Sally 1974-00-00
0.1 Sarah 1957-00-00
0.1 Shirley (Vance x Mala) 1995-02-19
0.1 Siam ll 1978-00-00
0.1 Toby 1961-00-00
1.0 Vance 1963-00-00

 

[Elephantelephant]

Asian elephant cow Tai dead in Have Trunk Will Travel at 56 years.

 

[Mai Thai]

I recently found some photos of 1.0 Charlie 1973-00-00 at Ringling Brow. and Barnum & Bailey Center for Elephant Conservation. Before I could not find any pictures of him so I figured these would be good to share. Here they are: