North American Asian Elephant Population 2022

Hyak_II said:
No. There are two pure Bornean cows in Europe, that have had a combined total of 7 offspring between them, all of which barring one (who was sired by a smallish sri lankan bull) were sired by a fairly large Indian bull. All calves are healthy and were birthed easily. The two eldest hybrid females are the same size as their Bornean mothers, and have also bred with the same large Indian bull to produce 4 healthy, problem free calves.

Ultimately, the cow controls the offspring's size. A very tiny calf could turn into a massive adult, and vice versa. Think, in the wild, massive old 13-14,000 pound bulls will happily breed with little 5-6,000 pound cows just starting their estrus cycles, and they calf just fine. Its the way things are both in terms of only the largest, oldest, most dominant bulls getting to breed, and a method of selection on the cows behalf to attempt to help ensure her potential daughters won't be breeding with their fathers down the road.
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Fascinating. Thanks for the input
 
Corangurilla said:
We lost Dalip….
Zoo Miami now holds 2 (1.1) Asian Elephants.
He was an impressive bull. Almost looked like a Columbian Mammoth. I would’ve loved to see him in person…
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Devastating news, but obviously expected with him being 56. He definitely reached a wonderful age for a bull.

On the positive side, it's a step forward to Miami hopefully acquiring some breeding females (as initially planned), to allow Ongard to breed.
 
Jambo said:
On the positive side, it's a step forward to Miami hopefully acquiring some breeding females (as initially planned), to allow Ongard to breed.
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two problems with that: Ongard is owned by San Diego zoo, I believe. Second problem is where would the female(s) come from?
 
ZCChip said:
two problems with that: Ongard is owned by San Diego zoo, I believe. Second problem is where would the female(s) come from?
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I think i've talked about this on here before.

San Diego does own Ongard. They sent him to Miami so he could be in a breeding situation down the line once Dalip and Nellie pass.

Houstan comes to mind as a facility that would need to split it's herd down the line (although this would still be a while away). Sending Shanti and Joy makes the most sense, but i'd imagine they'd allow Shanti to breed at least once more before this happens.

ALS was also trying to export two of their females to Fort Worth a few years ago, but those plans fell through. They have a few females to offer.
 
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Jambo said:
Houstan comes to mind as a facility that would need to split it's herd down the line (although this would still be a while away). Sending Shanti and Joy makes the most sense, but i'd imagine they'd allow Shanti to breed at least once more before this happens.
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Why does Houston need to split its herd? What's the rationale for this being a necessity? Not saying you're wrong, just curious.
 
Neil chace said:
Why does Houston need to split its herd? What's the rationale for this being a necessity? Not saying you're wrong, just curious.
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They'll have to split their herd eventually due to space issues and also since they have 2 different matrilineal groups, it will be relatively easy to split the herd when it becomes necessary.
 
Neil chace said:
Why does Houston need to split its herd? What's the rationale for this being a necessity? Not saying you're wrong, just curious.
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They don't have the space to accomodate the large herd they'll soon have. Especially with Joy and Tilly joining the breeding program in five or so years time; giving Houstan five breeding females (if they elect to continue breeding Tess into her 40's, which I doubt).
 
Jambo said:
They don't have the space to accomodate the large herd they'll soon have. Especially with Joy and Tilly joining the breeding program in five or so years time; giving Houstan five breeding females (if they elect to continue breeding Tess into her 40's, which I doubt).
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Psh are you kidding? Houston should (and likely will) continue to breed from Tess as along as she’s fit to do so, which hopefully will be into her late 40’s-early 50’s. Unlike Australia who has the ever present concern of not enough holding space, and Europe, who has bred them so well they’re also running of holding space, the states is desperately in need of more cows breeding and calves being born (And surviving). Between attrition and herpes the population is in severe trouble, and Tess is in the unique situation where she is well set up to continue breeding for as long as her reproductive cycle is able to do so, and at a facility that will actually permit it. Moreover, considering Houston currently has 13 animals (8 of which are past the major herpes concern age), they are also in the perfect situation that they’ll likely have to worry less and less about fatal herpes flareups for calves due to the overall herd immunity they’ll receive from all the older animals shedding it periodically.

Regardless of that though, all of this is purely conjecture at this point and likely still several years away.

Edit: this is an North American population thread, not the zoom Miami thread, so I’ll expand a bit more. In theory, the easiest move for Houston to take would be to retain Shanti and Joy (and any female calves born to Shanti and Thai in the future) and use Tucker as their new breeding bull after Thailand passes away. The Tess family could then be sent out to another facility to start up a breeding herd there (this is entirely speculation on my behalf, but I could see Tulsa being a likely candidate, both in terms of facility needs and distance wise, plus Tulsa will have SPACE as well). Alternately, if Houston wanted to retain the Tess family instead, it would be easy enough to relocate the Shanti family and then simply bring in a new bull from elsewhere.

Regardless, there are a couple of realities one has to consider with Houston. Ultimately, although they’re both in good health and condition right now, Thailand and Methai are both geriatric animals who sadly likely won’t be around in 10 years time. Baylor and Duncan will both be ready to head to new facilities to breed within the next 5-10 years as well (or even sooner for Baylor). For all we know, they might simply opt to send out Tucker as well, bring in a totally new bull, and keep the entire female herd intact. They’re fairly hemmed in now, but they could potentially even decide to expand the exhibit again as well. Management could decided a large, dynamic and reproductively successful elephant herd is more important than a reptile house, or patch of woods providing a visual barrier to the near by primate exhibits.
 
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Hyak_II said:
Psh are you kidding? Houston should (and likely will) continue to breed from Tess as along as she’s fit to do so, which hopefully will be into her late 40’s-early 50’s. Unlike Australia who has the ever present concern of not enough holding space, and Europe, who has bred them so well they’re also running of holding space, the states is desperately in need of more cows breeding and calves being born (And surviving). Between attrition and herpes the population is in severe trouble, and Tess is in the unique situation where she is well set up to continue breeding for as long as her reproductive cycle is able to do so, and at a facility that will actually permit it. Moreover, considering Houston currently has 13 animals (8 of which are past the major herpes concern age), they are also in the perfect situation that they’ll likely have to worry less and less about fatal herpes flareups for calves due to the overall herd immunity they’ll receive from all the older animals shedding it periodically.
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That's very true; Tess is in her early 40's so could realistically still produce another few calves. Houston won't have the space to continue breeding from her though, unless they export some of their cows and split the herd which will probably be the next step following the births of the next calves to Shanti and Tess.

Hyak_II said:
Edit: this is an North American population thread, not the zoom Miami thread, so I’ll expand a bit more. In theory, the easiest move for Houston to take would be to retain Shanti and Joy (and any female calves born to Shanti and Thai in the future) and use Tucker as their new breeding bull after Thailand passes away. The Tess family could then be sent out to another facility to start up a breeding herd there (this is entirely speculation on my behalf, but I could see Tulsa being a likely candidate, both in terms of facility needs and distance wise, plus Tulsa will have SPACE as well). Alternately, if Houston wanted to retain the Tess family instead, it would be easy enough to relocate the Shanti family and then simply bring in a new bull from elsewhere.
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At the moment the Tess family is bigger, so i'd assume Houston would want to retain that line with Tess's two daughters, Tupelo, Tilly (and granddaughter, Winnie) being the main breeding females down the line.

Shanti will probably breed again within the next few years, and the gender of her calf will probably influence a potential move. A male; more reason for her and Joy to be shifted elsewhere to breed. And a female may give Shanti's line an additional female, and thus, an additional breeding female down the line if Houston elect to retain Shanti's line.

Also Baylor (and Duncan) are very valuable males, so i'd imagine both will be shifted into the breeding program sooner rather than later.
 
Jambo said:
They are two seperate sub species. Sumatran's are on the island of Sumatra, and Malaysians are found in Malaysia, which means they're 'mainland' asian elephants - alongside Indians too.
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So then the several threads that claim that zoos have Sumatran elephants are wrong. I am guessing that these zoos actually have the elephants from the subpopulation of Indian elephants from Malaysia. Your clarification was appreciated.

Tess, Becky, Rose, and Jati are also a part of the Malaysian subpopulation of Asian elephants, or has that been proven false?
 
wild boar said:
So then the several threads that claim that zoos have Sumatran elephants are wrong. I am guessing that these zoos actually have the elephants from the subpopulation of Indian elephants from Malaysia. Your clarification was appreciated.
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No, I'm confused as to where you are getting that from... there are a couple zoos in Europe, one in Australia, and several in Asia with pure Sumatrans.

Nonetheless, this conversation does not really belong in this thread so I suggest you ask questions like these in another thread (I believe there is one for Sumatran elephants in captivity?).
 
To add to IndianRhino, there are both. There *are* pure Ssp Sumatran elephants, a breeding group in Spain, a female group in Australia, and a few different holders (both breeding and non) in Asia as well. These animals are phenotypically different from mainland and Sri Lankan Asian elephants.

There are ALSO Indian elephants, of the Malaysian locale, as well. Those are Billy, Sabu, Tess, Rosie, Becky and Jati in North America, Sang Raja (and potentially more) in Europe, and once again, there are holders in Asia as well. These animals are generally *not* phenotypically different from other Indian and Sri Lankan Asian elephants. Sabu is a bit unique looking, I don’t think that has anything to do with his region of collection, and more so just to do with him as an individual (he’s somewhat bow legged and has small, deep set eyes)
 
There are two threads concerning the Cincinnati Zoo that call some of their elephants Sumatran. One of those is the species list that is updated every two years. I have seen elephants mentioned as Sumatran elsewhere on the forum.
 
wild boar said:
There are two threads concerning the Cincinnati Zoo that call some of their elephants Sumatran. One of those is the species list that is updated every two years. I have seen elephants mentioned as Sumatran elsewhere on the forum.
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I think you've confused that. Cincinnati was well known for holding Sumatran Rhinos , not elephants.
 
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