North American Asian Elephant Population 2023

[MidwestFan]

With the recent and planned transfers to TESS, I do wonder if the actual zoological parks that have spent money investing in exhibits for elderly elephants were considered or given the option to house any of the elephants. I would hope that the AZA institutions worked together prior to sending any elephants to TESS (and yes, I know they are AZA certified, but that is not the same standard as accreditation).

 

[John Marchwick]

With the recent and planned transfers to TESS, I do wonder if the actual zoological parks that have spent money investing in exhibits for elderly elephants were considered or given the option to house any of the elephants. I would hope that the AZA institutions worked together prior to sending any elephants to TESS (and yes, I know they are AZA certified, but that is not the same standard as accreditation).

I’m sure there was a lot of consideration. Nicole for example was living by herself and socially it’s not good for elephants to be alone and isolated by themselves. And it’s not like TESS isn’t a good home for those elephants, sure there have been more elephants moving there lately but I don’t see nothing wrong with it.

 

[Jambo]

With the recent and planned transfers to TESS, I do wonder if the actual zoological parks that have spent money investing in exhibits for elderly elephants were considered or given the option to house any of the elephants. I would hope that the AZA institutions worked together prior to sending any elephants to TESS (and yes, I know they are AZA certified, but that is not the same standard as accreditation).

They probably did, but most of those facilities either are already at capacity or (in the case of most), looking to move away from holding geriatric elephants to hold breeding groups or no elephants whatsoever.

 

[15399]

And it’s not like TESS isn’t a good home for those elephants, sure there have been more elephants moving there lately but I don’t see nothing wrong with it.

Have they solved their tuberculosis problems? I know TESS used to NOT be a good home for elephants, but with the AZA moving some elephants there I sure hope conditions have improved from tuberculosis outbreaks and reckless social groupings leading to elephant deaths and poor welfare.

 

[John Marchwick]

Have they solved their tuberculosis problems? I know TESS used to NOT be a good home for elephants, but with the AZA moving some elephants there I sure hope conditions have improved from tuberculosis outbreaks and reckless social groupings leading to elephant deaths upon arrival.

if they still do I’d be very surprised by that considering 5 elephants across U.S. AZA accredited institutions have or will be transferring their within the last year.

 

[Yazziel]

Have they solved their tuberculosis problems? I know TESS used to NOT be a good home for elephants, but with the AZA moving some elephants there I sure hope conditions have improved from tuberculosis outbreaks and reckless social groupings leading to elephant deaths and poor welfare.

Nop, the TB positive elephants are still there. They have their own yards and barn Called the quarantined habitat. Nicole will join Sissy as the only other non positive Asian elephant and the occasional visit from Nosey the African elephant who apparently has a history of TB and cannot be with the other Africans.

 

[John Marchwick]

Nop, the TB positive elephants are still there. They have their own yards and barn Called the quarantined habitat. Nicole will join Sissy as the only other non positive Asian elephant and the occasional visit from Nosey the African elephant who apparently has a history of TB and cannot be with the other Africans.

oh good, so we’re sending her to a sanctuary where a bunch of disease infected animals are after all. Great fantastic, now I know what @Neil chace was so concerned about. The Los Angeles Zoo could’ve taken Nicole for gosh sakes why didn’t she go there I’m wondering.

 

[Jambo]

oh good, so we’re sending her to a sanctuary where a bunch of disease infected animals are after all. Great fantastic, now I know what @Neil chace was so concerned about. The Los Angeles Zoo could’ve taken Nicole for gosh sakes why didn’t she go there I’m wondering.

If Los Angeles plan to have a breeding herd down the line (which is a possibility) adding Nicole wouldn't make any sense from that stand point. LA has a massive complex, so there's considerable chance they will look into holding a breeding herd going forward.

 

[John Marchwick]

If Los Angeles plan to have a breeding herd down the line (which is a possibility) adding Nicole wouldn't make any sense from that stand point. LA has a massive complex, so there's considerable chance they will look into holding a breeding herd going forward.

I’m just saying that could’ve been A institution Nicole could’ve gone too given Jewel had just passed and they do have the space to take her.

 

[Jambo]

I’m just saying that could’ve been A institution Nicole could’ve gone too given Jewel had just passed and they did have the space for her.

This would've likely been a move that's been long in the works; much prior to Jewel's death.

 

[ZooElephantMan]

I don’t see why sending new elephants to TES is such a big deal, since TES’s TB Positive elephants use separate yards and barns to keep the disease from spreading. Is there still a high risk of the new elephants contracting TB even if they never get anywhere near TES’s preexisting TB positive elephants?

 

[Jambo]

I don’t see why sending new elephants to TES is such a big deal, since TES’s TB Positive elephants use separate yards and barns to keep the disease from spreading. Is there still a high risk of the new elephants contracting TB even if they never get anywhere near TES’s preexisting TB positive elephants?

I don't believe so. The complex is massive and they have three barns, located decent distance away from each other, so they should be fine.

If there was any sort of risk to Nicole, San Antonio wouldn't have sent here there. She should be fine.

 

[15399]

I’m just saying that could’ve been A institution Nicole could’ve gone too given Jewel had just passed and they do have the space to take her.

It's important to note that the social implications of introducing elderly elephants to each other can be difficult. Elephants are creatures of habit, and introducing two elderly elephants hasn't always been the most successful. Therefore, whichever institution ends up with San Antonio's elephant would've had their work cut out for them and are rolling the dice with whether or not she could integrate with the zoo's other elephants to begin with. Truthfully, San Antonio was in a difficult situation that there was no good answer to, and at least TESS has the space to hopefully manage whatever the social realities of these introductions are.

 

[Hyak_II]

To be quite frank, I have no issue with geriatric cows going to TES. They’re a dead end breeding wise, can be socially problematic, and honestly, they’re an expensive burden for whatever facility ends up taking them on, with very little reward besides simply “having another elephant”. Most older cows, simply due to the management style that was so popular when they were younger, are riddled with arthritis and other various health issues that are not cheap to help maintain. Any animal that goes to TES will never leave that facility so it’s not like there’s any concern of TB spread to other facilities, and honestly given the space and habitat the animals have access to, it’s really a better retirement facility for an able bodied animal more than any zoo can offer at the current moment. They’re an excellent dumping ground for animals that would otherwise take up space that could be used for bachelor holding within the AZA.

Look at Oklahoma City, for example. They took Bamboo and Chai from Seattle (a move to this day I still think was a very poor decision), and what did they get in exchange? Both of them passed away within 7 years, leaving no term long positive effects on the herd, and moreover, they *directly* lost their oldest female calf, Malee, because of the two older cows being transferred there. She succumbed to EEHV-HD, but it was a highly lethal strain uncommonly found an Asian elephants, but that the Seattle cows were known to carry. If they had never been sent there, OKC could’ve very well had another young, potentially breeding cow still alive, who at this point could’ve had one or two calves of her own. Instead Malee died, both old cows died, and OKC has another strain of herpes virus to worry about. Neither Chai nor Bamboo ever integrated into the herd well either, so it’s not like there was really any social benefit for them going there either. Had they gone to TES, their lifespan likely would’ve remained the same, but the reproductive population of Asian elephants in North America likely would’ve been infinitely better off because of it.

 

[John Marchwick]

It's important to note that the social implications of introducing elderly elephants to each other can be difficult. Elephants are creatures of habit, and introducing two elderly elephants hasn't always been the most successful. Therefore, whichever institution ends up with San Antonio's elephant would've had their work cut out for them and are rolling the dice with whether or not she could integrate with the zoo's other elephants to begin with. Truthfully, San Antonio was in a difficult situation that there was no good answer to, and at least TESS has the space to hopefully manage whatever the social realities of these introductions are.

I know it’s difficult but I also know Los Angeles has done it before. When Shaunzi lost her herd mate Kara at Fresno Chaffee Zoo she was transferred to Los Angeles and from there was successfully introduced to Tina and Jewel. Also Los Angeles could’ve had the space to take her because Jewel passed away recently.

 

[John Marchwick]

To be quite frank, I have no issue with geriatric cows going to TES. They’re a dead end breeding wise, can be socially problematic, and honestly, they’re an expensive burden for whatever facility ends up taking them on, with very little reward besides simply “having another elephant”. Most older cows, simply due to the management style that was so popular when they were younger, are riddled with arthritis and other various health issues that are not cheap to help maintain. Any animal that goes to TES will never leave that facility so it’s not like there’s any concern of TB spread to other facilities, and honestly given the space and habitat the animals have access to, it’s really a better retirement facility for an able bodied animal more than any zoo can offer at the current moment. They’re an excellent dumping ground for animals that would otherwise take up space that could be used for bachelor holding within the AZA.

Look at Oklahoma City, for example. They took Bamboo and Chai from Seattle (a move to this day I still think was a very poor decision), and what did they get in exchange? Both of them passed away within 7 years, leaving no term long positive effects on the herd, and moreover, they *directly* lost their oldest female calf, Malee, because of the two older cows being transferred there. She succumbed to EEHV-HD, but it was a highly lethal strain uncommonly found an Asian elephants, but that the Seattle cows were known to carry. If they had never been sent there, OKC could’ve very well had another young, potentially breeding cow still alive, who at this point could’ve had one or two calves of her own. Instead Malee died, both old cows died, and OKC has another strain of herpes virus to worry about. Neither Chai nor Bamboo ever integrated into the herd well either, so it’s not like there was really any social benefit for them going there either. Had they gone to TES, their lifespan likely would’ve remained the same, but the reproductive population of Asian elephants in North America likely would’ve been infinitely better off because of it.

hold on, I could’ve sworn you said EEHV couldn’t be transferred to other elephants? If that’s the case is that why Jasmine and Thorn at the albuquerque zoo and Lily at the Oregon zoo died of EEHV because they were exposed to other elephants who carry the virus? If I’m not mistaken Samson transferred to the Oregon Zoo the same year when Lily died and the Albert I think too recently transferred to Albuquerque fairly recently as well.

 

[E Maximus]

hold on, I could’ve sworn you said EEHV couldn’t be transferred to other elephants? If that’s the case is that why Jasmine and Thorn at the albuquerque zoo and Lily at the Oregon zoo died of EEHV because they were exposed to other elephants who carry the virus? If I’m not mistaken Samson transferred to the Oregon Zoo the same year when Lily died and the Albert I think too recently transferred to Albuquerque fairly recently as well.

EEHV is transmissible between elephants and yes Samsons' transfer could potentially be the reason Lily passed away in Oregon if he was carrying a strain not carried within their herd and she wasn't able to build up an immunity to it. Herds tend to have multiple strains that occur and when another animal is brought in that has a different strain it can be fatal if the incoming animal just so happens to be shedding that particular strain of EEHV at the time of their arrival and there isn't enough time to build an immunity.

Regarding Albert at ABQ, he was transferred there back in 2003 alongside his brother Samson way before Thorn and Jazmine succumbed to EEHV.

 

[Hyak_II]

hold on, I could’ve sworn you said EEHV couldn’t be transferred to other elephants? If that’s the case is that why Jasmine and Thorn at the albuquerque zoo and Lily at the Oregon zoo died of EEHV because they were exposed to other elephants who carry the virus? If I’m not mistaken Samson transferred to the Oregon Zoo the same year when Lily died and the Albert I think too recently transferred to Albuquerque fairly recently as well.

No, herpes can absolutely transfer from animal to animal. That’s actually…exclusively the way it’s contracted…

and regarding Lily, it possibly could’ve been from Samson, but it’s tough to say. I don’t think it was released which strain specifically afflicted her, so it’s impossible to say where could’ve come from. It could’ve come from one of the resident Oregon animals, it could’ve been something that was passed along from Tusko (which is quite possible, he was transferred around a lot and did time in the circus ring, which gives lots of opportunities to pick up novel herpes strains) or it could’ve been something from Samson.

 

[Yassa]

1. Yes herpes is contracted by direct contact with an infected, virus-shedding elephant. However, I strongly doubt that the transfer of Bamboo and Chai was the reason why the young female in Oklahoma died. As far as I know she died from EEHV1. Its correct many strains of EEHV1 exist and they are all different, but an infection with one strain of EEHV1A provides protection against all other strains of EEHV1A and most likely against EEHB1B too. So far research has shown that there are no known links between any transfers and an EEHV outbreak. That young female died because she had no antibodies against EEHV 1 in her blood when one of the adults started shedding the virus. And the reason for that was most likely the small herd size (means the virus was shedded only rarely and not in her first year of life when the maternal antibodies she got in utero were still high enough to protect her from getting severely sick). Her mother, aunt and father all carry EEHV1 too and it was only a matter of time before she would pick it up and get severely ill or die.

2. However I agree that there is no benefit transferring non-breeding females into breeding groups. Older females are notoriously difficult to integrate with other unrelated females, especially if strong bonds exist between the other elephants.

TES is a fantastic place for such females because they have serveral other female elephants so the newcomer can choose a friend (instead of having just one compagnion which they may or may not get along). TES also has the space to keep Nicole apart from the others is she wants to, without compromising the welfare of one of the elephants involved. Old females that are not integrated into a multigenerational familys are notoriously difficult to entertain as they are not very playful and often not interested in socialising with (unrelated) females, and without natural vegetation to feed on these females usually spend their days rocking and bored. Lets be honest, we have all seen it. It s much easier to keep a bachelor group with young bulls or a family group with calves busy in a zoo environment; they do not depend as much on natural vegetation as these socially difficult older females. Sadly the zoos interested in taking old females are usually those with the worst facilities, because they do not have enough space for a breeding group and not the safety facilities for a bachelor group. Like San Antonio zoo when they got Nicole…

3. Nicole herself has been exposed to TB since she was a longtime member of the Ringling Blue Unit. Ringling had many many TB infected elephants again and again and never imposed strong quarantine for those infected, and therefore it was an ongoing problem. TB can lay dormant for many years before getting active, and bringing Nicole into a heathly zoo herd would be a risk for the other elephants there. At TES she will be with other elephants who have been exposed to TB (sadly all Asian elephants at TES are, and that is not the fault of the sanctuary).

4. There had been active TB cases at TES about 10 years ago (the female got infected in a circus, not at TES), and Carol Buckley has been accused of mismanaging this. I am not sure of these accusations were true, but that doesnt matter, since she was fired then and is not involved with TES since more then 10 years now. The new management got the AZA accrediation and introduced protected contact.

 

[Yassa]

By the way, I know that Malee from Oklahoma had no antibodies against EEHV in her blood when she dies because that was mentioned in one of the recent scientific papers about EEHV antibody research. She wasnt mentioned by name, but there was (thankfully) only one female calf in Oklahoma zoo who has died from EEHV so that was an easy guess.