North American Asian Elephant Population

I was reading about Sumatran Elephants yesterday and it'd be great if some could come into US zoos like how several were sent to Tierpark Berlin from Indonesia and are now in Madrid and reproducing successfully. They're definitely a subspecies worth keeping to help the subspecies and promoting the conservation of both their in-situ and ex-situ populations.
 
ctfctf7 said:
Chendra has experienced a miscarriage
Oregon Zoo elephant Chendra has miscarriage
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It seems like ever since Rama had to be euthanized in spring 2015 the whole herd started going downhill (Tusko's death 2015, Packy's death 2017, Lily's death 2018) with the construction of Elephant Lands. I don't know whether its because everything fell into place that way or another factor. I feel bad or Bob Lee, the elephant team and all involved or who visit the zoo to see the herd. I've been following the zoo's elephants since 2007 and this is devastating especially with her fighting TB. Plus the fact that Rose-Tu won't be able to conceive anymore is another limiting factor. If Oregon wants to breed elephants it seems they'll have to bring in more young cows to mate with Sam & Samson.
 
50.179 at the moment, including Little Mac. Of course, we don't necessarily know if any elephants in private hands, say in Ringling's multigenerational herd, have died. But of what we know, 50.179 is current. Elephant Enthusiast put a tremendous amount of work into this compilation, doubly invaluable because we no longer have the studbook. Unless someone has the time for some serious legwork and phone calls, I think we might be patient and hope Elephant Enthusiast is gracious enough to update it at the new year.
 
AmbikaFan said:
Wait. Rose-Tu can't conceive anymore? The article says Chendra is unlikely to become pregnant again. Is this a mistake or do you know something new?
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Sorry my mistake! Maybe I saw it somewhere but she is definitely getting up there in age for being able to conceive (she was born in 94) and she might be able to have 1 more calf. I'm not positively sure so I'm open to any corrections. I just know AZA doesn't like to breed older cows due to possible risks during pregnancies.
 
Sarus Crane said:
Sorry my mistake! Maybe I saw it somewhere but she is definitely getting up there in age for being able to conceive (she was born in 94) and she might be able to have 1 more calf. I'm not positively sure so I'm open to any corrections. I just know AZA doesn't like to breed older cows due to possible risks during pregnancies.
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Rose Tu is only 25, and unlike Chendra, she's had two previous living calves, so she's more than capable of breeding for up to 15 years. There has been a gap of six years since she had Lily, but we now know that the TB eventually spread from the males to at least Shine and now Chendra. It's possible Rose-Tu also had/has had a bout and that's why there's been no new pregnancy. ElephantElephant says there was a reported breeding between Rose-Tu and Samson late in 2018. She could have had TB from 2016-2018, or has gotten it since. Losing calf Lily had to be traumatic, and stress weakens the immune system, so maybe she contracted it in 2019.
 
AmbikaFan said:
Rose Tu is only 25, and unlike Chendra, she's had two previous living calves, so she's more than capable of breeding for up to 15 years. There has been a gap of six years since she had Lily, but we now know that the TB eventually spread from the males to at least Shine and now Chendra. It's possible Rose-Tu also had/has had a bout and that's why there's been no new pregnancy. ElephantElephant says there was a reported breeding between Rose-Tu and Samson late in 2018. She could have had TB from 2016-2018, or has gotten it since. Losing calf Lily had to be traumatic, and stress weakens the immune system, so maybe she contracted it in 2019.
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I totally agree! What are your thoughts on the future of the herd at Oregon based on these factors?
 
I just feel very badly. The zoo devoted probably 25% of its acreage to its elephant program, which started modern elephant breeding in 1961 with Packy's birth. To lose so many beloved herd members--halving the herd before Samson's arrival--to the virulent strain of TB that was virtually antibiotic-resistant in Packy and has now affected at least Shine and Chendra is almost too much to bear. Imagine all the separations necessary of those with the disease... Splitting up the females must have been very upsetting to them, even perhaps causing Lily enough stress to weaken her immune system enough for her to be felled by EEHV. And at least Chendra must still be separated. Such extraordinary bad luck is simply heartbreaking. Witnessing all of this must be just devastating for the staff. My thoughts are with them all.
 
Elephantelephant said:
https://www.kvia.com/news/el-paso/el-pa ... _ZwK2CzK7c
I hope she gets well soon.
https://ktar.com/story/2803050/phoenix- ... JFWA922qRY
Phoenix has completed the reconstruction of the exhibit.:)
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The first link is broken. Who is unwell?

Hooray for these new yards. Phoenix has undertaken the very difficult task for many years of holding elephants who are dangerous to humans and one another. Now there will be a whole yard for each, presumably with howdy possibilities should anyone want that much contact. Truly a devoted staff here too!
 

  1. AmbikaFanWell-Known Member
  2. I had come on this day because I was worried that Shanthi, the 44-year-old Asian elephant, might be near the end of her days. She has had arthritis for more than 20 years, and it has become so severe that on regular meds, she would not lie down, play, or even swim. In response, over the last five years, the medical staff have come up with remedies new and hitherto untried on elephants. See this link for these treatments as recently as May and going back years:

  4. Elephant Update: Treating Shanthi’s Arthritis

  5. I heard recently that these treatments were no longer working, and that the vets had decided to stop everything except basic NSAIDS and medications for foot infections. Unfortunately, I was not encouraged when I saw her. She was not moving around very much and stood still for long stretches. She repositioned her feet very frequently to redistribute the weight, sometimes in very odd positions that looked almost "unbalanced," like two feet side-by-side almost touching, or one foot far in front of the other to be more comfortable. I was dismayed to see her swinging her trunk for five minutes at one point, a repetitive behavior from the old days long ago when she only had a small stall. NZP has always kept its elephants' feet in pristine condition--and this could be witnessed in the other elephants, but Shanthi's nails were cracked vertically with heavy cuticles, leaving me to wonder if they were just too painful to touch or work on. She has had absesses and pressure sores on her footpads, and I can only imagine how bad these could be with all the repositioning. The advanced treatments had enabled her to lie down, play and swim for the first time in months, but I found she hasn't been in the pool for quite a while now. Ambika is known for loving to swim in the rain, so I've never hesitated to go on a rainy day to see Ambika, Shanthi, and Bozie swim in Spike's big pool. The pool was being filled when I first arrived, but no swimming ever happened. The keepers and docents have a long explanation ready of how carefully decisions about euthanasia like this are made and who is involved, etc., but I knew all of that and just wanted to know if she was close to that "red line." She is. When her quality of life has been irrevocably compromised and there are no more solutions, she will be humanely euthanized. There are no more solutions, so it's now only a matter of how much pain can be controlled. This is why I came, because it might have been the last time I'll ever see her.

    Many of us blithely assumed it would be 71-year-old Ambika who would go first. Remarkably, she has delighted everyone by enjoying robust health and passing birthday after birthday. She has become arthritic only in the last few years, and at the usual pace of its progression, she would presumably die of old age and not by the effects of arthritis. However, her degree of stiffness just since I saw her 5 months ago has increased noticeably, and her feet don't look good either. Keepers arrived to work on her front feet through the bars, and at one point, she actually withdrew a foot from the procedure, but it ended up being a very endearing sight. Longtime elephant manager Marie Galloway fed Ambika celery to keep her occupied, but anyone who knows Ambika knows how smart and how mischievous she can be. With a loving laugh, Galloway tried to keep her slim body between Ambika's eye and her foot, hoping she wouldn't see what was being done. Then she laughed even harder and used the clicker, that usually is an animal's sign that they've done something asked well in operant conditioning, every other second, almost in rapid succession, even laughing that Ambika was not being THAT good, she was just trying to drown out the sounds of the clipper. I must have 100 stories like this of times when you could clearly see Ambika's personality. Those personalities are why people can be so attached and moved by elephants. But she is 71, and Shanthi is being felled by crippling arthritis, and every time I make the 400-mile round trip to see the girls I grew up with, I know it might be the last time I see them. Ambika and Shanthi have been the elephants so many generations of families have grown up seeing and loving. It's difficult to think of the zoo without them. Now, for the first time, it looks as if that time may be sooner than later.

  6. Elephant Update: Treating Shanthi’s Arthritis
 
Sorry for the sloppiness above. I was trying to copy my post in the NZP thread. I have no idea where all the indenting and numbers come from, but at least the I formation is here.

@pokefan11 has started a new thread called Tulsa Zoo 2019. The link he provides has a paywall, but he reports that the Zoo's new master plan will include an expansion of its elephant habitat to become the largest in the country. This is great. Are they doing this knowing that they will get the elephants? Where they will get the elephants? Sneezy and Sooky are both nearing 50, and even if they were to live for quite a while, an exhibit of this magnitude would be far more room than they could ever use.

There was an experiment a few years ago, Tulsa partnering with Ringling. Young female Asha travelled to Tulsa with older companion Tova (like a chaperone in the old days lol), ostensibly to breed with Sneezy. He's wild-born, so his genes are valuable and under-utilized, so this was a great move. There were rumors saying she would stay for good, others saying she would return to FL whether or not she got pregnant. Unfortunately, though,Tova died in Tulsa, and Asha went home, with no word of a pregnancy. Would Tulsa be pouring this much money into a truly gigantic exhibit if they weren't sure they could populate it? Might there be some agreement with Ringling for a sizeable group to be relocated to Tulsa? In fact, could the certainty of a plan like this be why the AZA hasn't compelled them to relocate Sneezy and Sooky due to the "2 minimum" rule of 2017?

If these are signs of a burgeoning elephant herd in Tulsa, I couldn't be happier!
 
AmbikaFan said:
Sorry for the sloppiness above. I was trying to copy my post in the NZP thread. I have no idea where all the indenting and numbers come from, but at least the I formation is here.

@pokefan11 has started a new thread called Tulsa Zoo 2019. The link he provides has a paywall, but he reports that the Zoo's new master plan will include an expansion of its elephant habitat to become the largest in the country. This is great. Are they doing this knowing that they will get the elephants? Where they will get the elephants? Sneezy and Sooky are both nearing 50, and even if they were to live for quite a while, an exhibit of this magnitude would be far more room than they could ever use.

There was an experiment a few years ago, Tulsa partnering with Ringling. Young female Asha travelled to Tulsa with older companion Tova (like a chaperone in the old days lol), ostensibly to breed with Sneezy. He's wild-born, so his genes are valuable and under-utilized, so this was a great move. There were rumors saying she would stay for good, others saying she would return to FL whether or not she got pregnant. Unfortunately, though,Tova died in Tulsa, and Asha went home, with no word of a pregnancy. Would Tulsa be pouring this much money into a truly gigantic exhibit if they weren't sure they could populate it? Might there be some agreement with Ringling for a sizeable group to be relocated to Tulsa? In fact, could the certainty of a plan like this be why the AZA hasn't compelled them to relocate Sneezy and Sooky due to the "2 minimum" rule of 2017?

If these are signs of a burgeoning elephant herd in Tulsa, I couldn't be happier!
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Sorry for the paywall issue with the article on the Tulsa Zoo thread. The details I know regarding the elephant exhibit expansion is that Tulsa taxpayers approved in 2016 a $22 million expansion of the current elephant exhibit. Those funds become available to the zoo next year. To your point above I have not heard how they plan on going about expanding the herd, but this is a significant investment for there to not be some sort of plan. Here is a little more info from the Tulsa Zoo's Master Plan website: Vision 2025 Elephants & Entry - Building Beyond Definitely exciting times ahead for Sneezy and Sooky.
 
How wonderful, especially after the loss of their calf Kenzi to EEHV. This will actually be Rani's third calf after Jade and Kenzi, and Raja's fifth, after Maliha, Jade, Kenzi, and Priya. And fortunately, both Rani and Raja are young, so there will hopefully be even more in the future. Sometimes, good news can come at just the right time.
 
AmbikaFan said:
How wonderful, especially after the loss of their calf Kenzi to EEHV. This will actually be Rani's third calf after Jade and Kenzi, and Raja's fifth, after Maliha, Jade, Kenzi, and Priya. And fortunately, both Rani and Raja are young, so there will hopefully be even more in the future. Sometimes, good news can come at just the right time.
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Great news! I do not know if he will still have many calves with Raja, because the zoo should replace the bull or get a second bull so that Jade and Maliha can also get pregnant.

Here are links to other articles:
Rani the Asian elephant at the St. Louis Zoo is expecting
Rani Elephant Pregnancy | Saint Louis Zoo
 
Elephantelephant said:
Great news! I do not know if he will still have many calves with Raja, because the zoo should replace the bull or get a second bull so that Jade and Maliha can also get pregnant.

Here are links to other articles:
Rani the Asian elephant at the St. Louis Zoo is expecting
Rani Elephant Pregnancy | Saint Louis Zoo
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I don't think Rajah will be leaving anytime soon. He was born right there in St Louis to the late Onyx and Pearl, who is still there. Rani was also born there, of Ellie and Indy, so with their children, St. Louis has one of only two "double three-generation lineages" in the country, the other being Syracuse. I don't think the SSP will break this up, especially since he can still sure calves with Rani for a long time and maybe even Ellie, whose last calf was just six years ago. If his DNA is desired, his semen can be used elsewhere as needed, without removing him from St. Louis.

You're right that Maliha, 13, and Jade, 12, are at the perfect age for breeding and need a site. When Kandula' was moved to OKC, I said St. Louis would need him first, but perhaps there is a plan in place. AI could be attempted with all of the genetically under-represented US bulls--Dahlip, Spike, Groucho, and LA's Billy.
 
@AmbikaFan: This attitude is exactly why the US population of elephants is doing so poorly with zero signs for improvement in the future. St. Louis urgently needs a new bull so that all three females in breeding age can reproduce at a natural rate with a calf every 4 years. This cannot be done by AI - at least no zoo ever managed to. Maliha and Jade have already ‚lost‘ at least one, probably two calves through this bad management. They are in perfect age for breeding since years! The SSP absolutely needs all females to have as many calves as possible, but this can only be done if zoos send their ‚beloved‘ bulls (and females, of course) to other zoos when that is best for breeding.

If you want to know why the european population of Asian elephants is doing quite well - its because attitudes like you descibe above are not tolerated any more.
 
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I don't disagree with you at all, with any of this. I too think Maliha and Jade should have been bred before now. I'm the one who said Kandula' would be needed in St. Louis before OKC! And it shouldn't be hard, because these girls would only be related to the very few descendents of Indy and Onyx. Earlier starts, calves at an earlier age--we absolutely need to learn from the British model.

I was saying, however, that Rajah will probably remain so long as Ellie and Rani could become pregnant. That way, THEIR children would be bred to the new bull without requiring yet a third bull change when those calves mature. AI has absolutely worked, however, since Kandula' (then NZP) became the first live birth in 2001 from AI done in 1999, 20 years ago. In fact, it's become common to do AI in addition to a natural breeding to ensure success. Columbus Zoo bred Phoebe to Bank, but also AI'd with then-ABQ'S Samson. There was also a situation a few years ago, with (I think) Fort Worth, who used additional AI of Groucho, who ended up being the sire.

I'm explaining what I see happening here, but I advocate entirely for a system exactly like what ALS and Europe do. It's not so much that Rajah must leave, it's that another bull has been necessary now for 3 years--and they're out there! There quite a number of bachelor's out there who could all move to St. Louis--5 from Denver, 2 from Houston, Billy from LA, Kandula from OKC, either Dahlip or Ongard from Miami, etc. The SSP just has to choose who's best--and not already over-represented genetically. I can't explain why that's taking so long, nor do I defend it. As one living here, I daresay I'm even more bothered by this situation than you are!
 
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