North American Asian Elephant Population

Blue Bonnet was AI'd with only Samson, I believe. At the time, the only bulls at ft worth were Groucho (her father) and I think Casey, although he might have been transferred by then already.
 
Hyak_II said:
Blue Bonnet was AI'd with only Samson, I believe. At the time, the only bulls at ft worth were Groucho (her father) and I think Casey, although he might have been transferred by then already.
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Of course, my bad. Romeo hadn't yet gone to Fort Worth in 2011. But Ringling's Colonel and Casey in FW were/have been just duds. To be fair to Ringling, though, Doc in Syracuse has been quite successful, siring two living and one stillborn calf.
 
AmbikaFan said:
This is wonderful work again, @Elephant Enthusiast. What a resource to have all this available in one place. I could be wrong with no studbook available, but I don't think they use the word "unaccredited." I seem to recall it was something like "Affiliated," since several have transferred elephants to other facilities at the SSP's directive (Hugo, Hank, many Ringling) and have been very cooperative.
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Thank you @AmbikaFan! Interesting. Thank you for informing me about the correct identification for institutions which collaborate with the SSP but are not accredited.

AmbikaFan said:
What strikes me most here is the complete stop in 2012 of very successful reproduction at Ringling. With all their reproductive-age females, it's mystifying how none could have gotten pregnant in 8 years. I know they AI'd the performing girls on the road just before they stopped performing, so perhaps around 2016. Even if these 10 or so had received birth control for so long that it permanently stunted their fertility, there are still all the young ones who, except Piper at 8, could have been bred by now. It seems like an impossibly poor success rate, as if they haven't been trying. Their sister Rudy (18) and Sunny (12) in Columbus should have also been pregnant by now. Even proven Romeo hasn't sired a calf since he went to Fort Worth. This just seems more and more peculiar to me.
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I'm also baffled by the lack of reproduction at the Center for Elephant Conservation in the past six years. There were a couple of pregnancies that were made public after the last performing elephants were retired to the CEC in May 2016. However, the outcomes of those pregnancies were never publicized. The most recent births were Nate and Mike in December 2012 and June 2013, respectively. Sadly, both calves succumbed to EEHV in October 2016 and January 2016, respectively. Since then, there haven't been any births. However, given the fact that no news about the facility has been published since the potential relocation of its herd to the White Oak Conservation Center, it's possible that the CEC has continued its breeding program but has chosen to remain private about it. If that's the case, it would be uplifting to know that the institution with the greatest number of reproductively viable cows is still contributing to the reproduction of the species. However, if the CEC has discontinued their breeding program, it questions why a facility with the best reproductive success would stop breeding their elephants. Ultimately, time will tell whether the Center for Elephant Conservation has or hasn't continued its breeding program.

AmbikaFan said:
I notice that are still quite a few institutions with 1 or 2 elephants, not meeting the AZA minimum of 3. Does anyone know of special reasons to make these exceptions when others, like Buffalo, had to send Surapa and Jothi away? Yes, maybe Mari and Vaigai are allowed to stay in Hawaii because they're the only elephants in that very remote state. But offhand, I can't really think of reasons that weren't used on zoos who were forced to comply. Yes a couple like SDZ have an African to account for a third, but not all the rest. I continue to be fascinated by how enforcement is decided in these cases.
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When the AZA implemented the standard that accredited institutions must have a minimum of three elephants to maintain their herd, I was under the impression that the rule would be strictly enforced. However, that doesn’t seem to be the case. Several institutions, like the El Paso Zoo and Point Defiance Zoo, still have one or two elephants since the standard was implemented in September 2016 yet the AZA hasn't cracked down on them. Based on the current statistics of the population, I believe the AZA exempts certain institutions based on specific reasons. If the institution has intentions to phase their elephant program and their elephants are at an age where transfer could be hazardous, the institution may keep their elephants. However, if the institution has intentions to phase their elephant program and their elephants are at an age where transfer poses no significant hazards, the institution must relocate its elephants. I could be completely wrong with my assumption but that seems to be the case.

AmbikaFan said:
Yes, it's frustrating that we're missing data on the elephants from the three circuses and one's affiliated foundation. On the surface, it wouldn't seem difficult to update Carson and Barnes and Endangered Ark, because as a legal not-for-profit, the Endangered Ark must make its filings public--and the elephants count as long-term depreciable assets. But from the videos I've seen, they are just so darn nice that they'd probably eagerly tell anyone asked how all of its circus and foundation animals are doing. In a similar sense, George Carden is at least still in business, so certainly long-term visitors might know well who they're still seeing under the big tent. But Ringling has seemingly dropped off the face of the Earth.
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I had plans to contact the institutions which have elephants with an outdated status but didn't have the opportunity to do so before the publication of the annual population update. Hopefully, institutions like the Endangered Ark Foundation/Carson & Barnes Circus and George Carden Circus will be willing to share the status of their elephants. However, institutions like the Franzen Brothers Circus and the Center for Elephant Conservation will be next to impossible given their privacy. If successful in obtaining information pertaining to the status of elephants residing at private institutions, the newly published document will be updated and a post will be published to the thread.
 
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I can confirm that CEC has continued their breeding efforts but are keeping the results private.
Carson and Barnes are in a transition phase and more info will come in the following months.
Franzen currently still has 3, 2 African and 1 Asian
Cardens have 6 elephants currently
 
Thank you so much, @PSO. The circus world can be pretty insulated, so this is a true bounty of info. Charlie Gray, whose great success at ALS is the best on the continent, is very closely linked with the circus world and got to know many when he lived in FL. He holds them in such high esteem that his source of the continual need of new baby names is circus folk! I think there's a great lesson here, something like, "why can't we all be friends and tackle this challenge together?". Without Ringling's help, both with lots of science and a tual animals, zoos would have had no chance of ever becoming self-sustaining. Thankfully, a lot of these rigid barriers have fallen, and The Elephant Sanctuary employees are regularly hired by and respected by zoos. I guess the circuses may still face false assumptions about elephant treatment, and I'm sorry to see that stigma must still make them feel defensive. I so love such information that I'm still delighted to discover Okha's name and that there is a fifth septageneraian Asian, Minnie, in the country!

Asians have almost always been used by circuses, because they're deemed to be more controllable. Has Franzen always had Africans and bred his own replacements? Are tusks an issue? How are they behaviorally?
 
Unfortunately they have been trying "why cant we all just get along" for well over a decade with very little success. I personally feel its too little too late and with the surgeance of activism and "inexperienced" keepers and decision makers at the helms the future is quite grim. Heck, certain zoos dont get along with certain zoos as well as circuses, private owners and sanctuaries with the last being the most dangerous to elephants in this country.
 
PSO said:
Unfortunately they have been trying "why cant we all just get along" for well over a decade with very little success. I personally feel its too little too late and with the surgeance of activism and "inexperienced" keepers and decision makers at the helms the future is quite grim. Heck, certain zoos dont get along with certain zoos as well as circuses, private owners and sanctuaries with the last being the most dangerous to elephants in this country.
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Your perspective is valuable here. I hope you'll continue to share it.

The holier-than-thou attitude of sanctuaries used to make them a practical arm of activism. Now, I never thought Pat Derby was hier-than-thou, but since she's died and with all of the flak over LA's Billy, they've become quite arrogant--even though they now do sleepovers as fundraisers and all the rest they used to term "animal exploitation.". Celebrity endorsers galore have petitioned to have Billy sent to PAWS, which said it could accommodate him IF they received (I believe) $40 million to build a new barn for him. Well lol, LA just built about the best barn possible in 2010, so LA taxpayers are supposed to fork over $40 million to send him away to a barn they're paying for but will belong to someone else? Why? Activists say he is not receiving adequate companionship--although males in the wild are largely solitary and Billy has three females he could interact with if he so chose. And why does PAWS need $40 to build a new barn? They have a barn housing two Asian males, one castrated. So LA pays PAWS $40 million to have Billy go live in a new barn and spend his life alone? Isn't that what activists are saying is wrong with his life now?

The Elephant Sanctuary has had a considerable coming down in the world, after a big beginning with explosive fanfare. Carol Buckley had co-founded the organization largely to provide a home of 100 acres for her own elephant, Tarra. Suddenly with the confiscation of the Hawthorn Elephants, homes were needed, and the owners went on an expansion rampage culminating in 2,700 acres and three barns. Then, a keeper was killed by an elephant in 2006. They quietly abandoned all of the trust-speak and went to protected contact. They cooperate fully with the AZA, and various zoos have said they know or have hired keepers from ES. But their situation now is but a sad story. All those big expenses required big names on a board, and Buckley was fired from her own organization--and separated from her own elephant--by corporate folks that didn't want her to reveal a positive TB test. The organization grew so fast, it became a business to those who run it and say, We need more elephants!" to be cost effective. "We should have up to 50.". Carol Buckley at least had noble motives, but would you believe her name no longer appears on either the ES site or their Wikipedia entry? This is no accident; ;profiteering is absolutely the wrong motivation for this organization to exist, and zoos know it. Partnering with activists and doing extensive PR is their only way of populating the facility. In this way, they are less reputable than used-car salesmen. Yet this board's assessment is totally right:. They have only 11 residents, ranging from late 40s to 72 years. These are the ages when our elephants die. It's not a stretch to imagine that in ten years, there will be 2700 empty àcres with a 25-acre lake, three heated barns, and no occupants. When there are only one or two left, will the activists turn on the sanctuaries with their usual invective of keeping sentient beings in solitary confinement, the horror of it all? With much-larger zoo habitats, there is no longer any reason to send an elephant to one of these places. I agree with you. In doing the good they started out to do, they've become as crass and commercial as any cut-throat business...
 
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I also appreciate your perspective. One important thing to know as well regarding the Hawthorne elephants was Mr. Cuneo was very much pressured into releasing the elephants to the sanctuaries in particular. In fact, I knew of of 2 large properties that had been obtained in FL, a more sutaible environment for Asian elephants in my opinion, for the purpose of retiring them and also would not have kept.younger individuals from potentially breeding.
I know several AZA facilities that have hired TES employees and are "part" of the AZA. However these facilities are highly PC and the partnership with HSUS has dampered my opinion on AZA facilities in general. The AZA has been misguided with elephants, in my opinion, for so long several potential/proven breeding facilities have opted out. I appreciate some of those facilities, despite catching flack, still cooperate and exchange elephants with AZA institute's.
And regarding PAWS, several outstanding exhibits/facilities have been constructed for much less than $40 million. And you are absolutely correct that they already have the holding for.another bull. Once again, that barn was constructed for Prince, a tough male despite being castrated, and Sabu, the largest Asian elephant I've seen. The "Billy Barn" is just a ploy, in my opinion, for more money
 
PSO said:
I also appreciate your perspective. One important thing to know as well regarding the Hawthorne elephants was Mr. Cuneo was very much pressured into releasing the elephants to the sanctuaries in particular. In fact, I knew of of 2 large properties that had been obtained in FL, a more sutaible environment for Asian elephants in my opinion, for the purpose of retiring them and also would not have kept.younger individuals from potentially breeding.
I know several AZA facilities that have hired TES employees and are "part" of the AZA. However these facilities are highly PC and the partnership with HSUS has dampered my opinion on AZA facilities in general. The AZA has been misguided with elephants, in my opinion, for so long several potential/proven breeding facilities have opted out. I appreciate some of those facilities, despite catching flack, still cooperate and exchange elephants with AZA institute's.
And regarding PAWS, several outstanding exhibits/facilities have been constructed for much less than $40 million. And you are absolutely correct that they already have the holding for.another bull. Once again, that barn was constructed for Prince, a tough male despite being castrated, and Sabu, the largest Asian elephant I've seen. The "Billy Barn" is just a ploy, in my opinion, for more money
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There is probably very little we disagree on. You just happen to have the knowledge of circuses and their elephants that virtually no one on here has. I've read a lot of carny blogs, including some about performing quartet of Morgan Berry elephants, but mostly historical stuff like that. I know from these blogs, from Charlie Gray, and some Ringling employees that circus folk LOVED their elephants, LOVED them. So I know there must be a lot of gray area in "truths" that come about their alleged abuse by circuses. If I hadn't ended up at one of Ringling's pre-show animal open houses, I never would have seen how much those animals love their keepers, nor would I have learned the sweetest story. Elephant Nicole had reached retirement from the circus and had returned to FL, but she missed her aged keeper of some 30+ years so much that she went into a physical decline until she was sent back to the performing company a bit before the performance I saw. I don't know if the keeper also had to come out of retirement or if I remember that correctly, but this wasn't announced as part of the show. All the public saw was a seasoned vet holding her keeper's hand in her trunk up on the stage with the ringmaster while the other elephants performed. They were like an old, married couple, reunited and glowing.

I'm sure there are many stories like this the public never sees or has any way to know about that would balance the scales of what activists have tried to paint as the terrible lives of circus elephants. In fact, once the activists began going after zoos too, they began to lose their credibility and were seen for what they are because what happens at zoos is so much more visible.

I'm an elephant lover in the full sense of studying and enjoying their differences, their behavior. See the third post here:
Smithsonian National Zoo News 2020 [Smithsonian National Zoo]. I relish their personalities and differences. If you have worked in circuses and could profile, say, an elephant you loved and worked with, that's would what I call working together to create histories of these magnificent animals. We've only had so many Asian elephants in history, and each one is different and unique. Before it was no longer public, I pretty much knew the studbook by heart, because each entry was a distinct personality, story. You know some that nobody else may ever tell about! And especially with animals moving from zoos and circuses to safaris and sanctuaries, some elephants you know may be elephants we came to know. Or would love to know! That's what makes us all on the same side--those individual elephants with the incredible personalities.

Thank you for telling me that Hawthorn was given options that included breeding. I had no idea. It's truly evidence of how even more disgustingly political the activists were, even before we fully realized it. Breeding is their big no-no, so they must have fought hard to smear the FL facilities in some way. FL also would have meant you could visit.....

I totally agree that circuses have been unfairly and uniformally raked over the coals as an industry for something probably very few did. As Charlie Gray said, "Their elephants are their bread and butter! Why on Earth would they do anything bad to their friends and investments?!"

PS: What is HSUS?
 
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PSO said:
You are a very intelligent Zoo chatter.
HSUS: HUMANE SOCIETY of UNITED STATES
It's an activist group, in my opinion, that AZA willing partnered with. A zoological teaching institute I attended taught us the difference between them and your local shelter. Just do the research of this organization AZA teamed with
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Didn't recognize it by the acronym. Will look into it.
 
Interesting article I just ran across, describing a new behavioral phenomenon in India of males living in large single-sex groups in non-forested areas (crop areas) as an acclimation to loss of habitat and human conflict. Traditional matriarchal groupings, mixed groupings, and solitary males continue to be the norm in forested areas. With all that conservationists are doing to help this species survive, we tend to forget that species--especially highly intelligent species like this--themselves adapt for survival.

All-Male Groups in Asian Elephants: A Novel, Adaptive Social Strategy in Increasingly Anthropogenic Landscapes of Southern India
 
PSO said:
You are a very intelligent Zoo chatter.
HSUS: HUMANE SOCIETY of UNITED STATES
It's an activist group, in my opinion, that AZA willing partnered with. A zoological teaching institute I attended taught us the difference between them and your local shelter. Just do the research of this organization AZA teamed with
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It was one relatively benign speech and not a real "partnership" by any means.
 
Well I can assure you with Pacelle being me tooed that is off the table.

It's important to remember not all "critics" are the same. HSUS has not always been great on its opinions of zoos but that does not mean they are militantly anti-zoo and they do have some common goals (wildlife preservation, fighting illegal pet trade, ensuring animal welfare, cracking down on roadside zoos and other inappropriate homes for animals) with AZA. They are very different from PETA and IDA, which just want to end animals in captivity and make the entire world vegan.
 
The Truth About HSUS - HumaneWatch
The Truth About HSUS - HumaneWatch


AZA Giving HSUS Opportunity to Plug HSUS - HumaneWatch
AZA Giving HSUS Opportunity to Plug HSUS - HumaneWatch

This is just a few of many different sources available to the public. I attended a zoological teaching facility that one of the first things they teach was the difference between HSUS and more reputable organizations (unfortunately they dont teach this anymore. The facility AZA accredited)
 
I silently dread the day IDA's Ten Worst Zoos for Elephants arrives with all its misinformation designed to target wine moms and other idiots this year.
 
Yi Qi said:
I silently dread the day IDA's Ten Worst Zoos for Elephants arrives with all its misinformation designed to target wine moms and other idiots this year.
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I used to dread it too, but life for such a majority of elephants has gotten so much better in the last two decades that they're running out of legitimate complaints. For years, they raged against free contact and keeper injury, but with only isolated examples of that left, have had to heighten the rhetoric using insignificant or illogical reasons. Last year, they were reduced to claiming Milwaukee was terrible for building a state-of-the-art new exhibit because its very spaciousness would enable the zoo to accommodate more elephants! They ranted for years about elephants who had no companion or only a companion that wasn't its species, but then when singles and pairs were moved to make herds of three, IDA complained in that same highly-dramatic rhetoric that they had been moved! They were snuck out in the dead of night in stealth operations so no one would know! Or that the endlessly-paperworked African elephants were "kidnapped" and secreted out of the country by zoos who make the list solely for exhibiting the herds that IDA maintains all elephants need. Zoos make the list simply for breeding, with IDA claiming that EEHV deaths can be predicted and are therefore "murder.". Their goal of getting all animals out of zoos is starting to become patently obvious, with the dramatic rhetoric contrasting starkly with the ridiculousness of complaints being made. It should be getting obvious to even wine moms that IDA simply wants no elephants--or eventually any animals--in zoos at all.

We should probably be able to predict what will be on this year's list, right? In no particular order:

1. Billy wasting away all alone in the luxurious LA Zoo--with three females for company. They'll second the proposal for PAWS to build a whole new barn for him so he can live in (to use their words) "solitary confinement.". I mean, really, isn't this senseless to the average person?
2. Oregon, for losing Lily to EEHV and Chendra's fetus in miscarriage.
3. Columbus for the death of Phoebe's Ellie.
4. Indianapolis for the loss of both calves to EEHV..
5. St. Louis for allowing Rani to become pregnant.
6. ALS for having FC and rides, which injured a keeper. It will be interesting to see if IDA will go there, seeing as ALS has successfully been spared or ignored to date, despite having shows, rides, and the most successful breeding program in the western hemisphere.
7. The dispersing of the two African herds to more zoos.
8. The roadside car-wash facilities.
9. Any zoo who has had an elephant in their 40s die, since we all know elephants in the wild would still be giving birth and travelling 100s of miles a day into their upper 70s.

Hall of Shame:
1. Any zoo with 1-2 elephants like Edmonton, Bronx, and Buttonwood who haven't followed IDA's orders to move them to a sanctuary.
2. Any zoo that has built incredible new habitats to make their elephants' lives better because it could possibly lead to breeding or acquiring enough elephants to make a herd.

What have I missed? (I'm serious--please add anything I've missed for 2019, especially African holdings or new roadside zoos!)

Do people really buy into any of this?
 
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I don't follow new member introductions as much as I should, @PSO, your views and expertise as an elephant handler is, so far as I know, unique on here. Please keep educating us. And @marvinjonesIII, your broad ability to see the "gestalt," the bigger picture, and your specific historical knowledge is simply invaluable. Thank God I and my increasingly-muddied memories of NZP lore no longer need be a major source of its history. Between your memories and @Andrew_NZP's research skills, the past is recoverable. Thank you for joining and sharing.
 
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