Sounds strange, rhinos bear only one calf, so siblings never encounter each other!
In any case, anybody knows some written source of these rhinos seen in Sudan?
It is even in czech mainstream newspapers.
Northern White Rhino's going back to Africa
- Thread starter Hix
- Start date
It is even in czech mainstream newspapers.
phoenix,
The reasoning for no/yes last ditch has been precipitated only due to Dvur's intervention. As I observed before there has never been any love lost on the Congolese authorities to effectively protect the northern white rhinos.
Why no sooner a rescue op.? Dvur really tried before the 2003 term just prior to when the 2nd recent big poaching scandal had the fans. The northern white pop. had been hovering at the 30+/- mark for more than a decade .... and the Garamba park was never able to withstand any prolonged poaching without outside funding and technical back-up. It seems kinda sad that - in hindsight - WWF never put the brake on and demanded D.R. Congo COOPERATE with regional rhino authorities in IUCN/SSC to relocate part of the population elsewhere (something that is a more than sensible approach when a population is the low and so beset with frequent in-roads in pop. increase ....).
Perhaps, it is a firm reminder to us all that we should do our utmost and establish back-up populations ex situ, in situ, in semi-captive or whatever when any species is restricted to one locale only. Hopefully, IUCN may take this policy further ... is all I can say.
Genetics: indeed the diversity is rather low at 4+3 (probably some relatedness in there too). Apart, biological materials have been preserved for several other northern whites in Dvur and San Diego (to enable broadening the genetics base ... if only marginally). However, even the southern whites were down to 20+/- in the early 1900's and now there is 17,500.
However, I agree ... it could and should have been much sooner. I just like to make it clear that Dvur zoo people were never ever the stumbling block.
Sadly, even EAZA and some US captive rhino folks have opposed this last ditch effort. .... I do not care there ... as I suppose the money was donated by third sources anyway ... and so the deal does not lose any other more promising rhino conservation projects any cash.
K.B.
The reasoning for no/yes last ditch has been precipitated only due to Dvur's intervention. As I observed before there has never been any love lost on the Congolese authorities to effectively protect the northern white rhinos.
Why no sooner a rescue op.? Dvur really tried before the 2003 term just prior to when the 2nd recent big poaching scandal had the fans. The northern white pop. had been hovering at the 30+/- mark for more than a decade .... and the Garamba park was never able to withstand any prolonged poaching without outside funding and technical back-up. It seems kinda sad that - in hindsight - WWF never put the brake on and demanded D.R. Congo COOPERATE with regional rhino authorities in IUCN/SSC to relocate part of the population elsewhere (something that is a more than sensible approach when a population is the low and so beset with frequent in-roads in pop. increase ....).
Perhaps, it is a firm reminder to us all that we should do our utmost and establish back-up populations ex situ, in situ, in semi-captive or whatever when any species is restricted to one locale only. Hopefully, IUCN may take this policy further ... is all I can say.
Genetics: indeed the diversity is rather low at 4+3 (probably some relatedness in there too). Apart, biological materials have been preserved for several other northern whites in Dvur and San Diego (to enable broadening the genetics base ... if only marginally). However, even the southern whites were down to 20+/- in the early 1900's and now there is 17,500.
However, I agree ... it could and should have been much sooner. I just like to make it clear that Dvur zoo people were never ever the stumbling block.
Sadly, even EAZA and some US captive rhino folks have opposed this last ditch effort. .... I do not care there ... as I suppose the money was donated by third sources anyway ... and so the deal does not lose any other more promising rhino conservation projects any cash.
K.B.
Presumably the ex Dvur 4 animals and the Sudanese 3 wild animals cannot be related at all, but I know that one of the ex Dvur females is the daughter of one of the two males.
I agree that the Southern Whites' success could, with the right management and considerable luck, still be replicated even with this tiny remnant of Northerns.
Pertinax and other ZooChat friends,
One has to add on to the 4+3 the (both extant and deceased) individual northern whites whose genetic materials have been lodged in the 2 gene banks at CRES and/or IZW.
I know it aint much nor ideal and technically speaking one would wish for a minimum 20+ unrelated founders (but even with the Garamba club the measure of relatedness was already building up ...), but that is just wishful thinking and non-realistic as of now.
Jwer. Thanks for the link.
Interesting how these Rhinos are become more alert and wary as they re-adapt to a natural environment. Hopefully these stimulii might extend to breeding again in the future.
They do unfort. when above 18-20 years of age without pregnancy. This is what has happened to some of the northern white rhinos in captivity. It had to do with inadequate social groupings and exhibitry in the formative years. Something we learned along the way and cannot now be undone.
Those that have been transferred back to Kenya are fertile and able to conceive. The near natural semi captive environment is the main reason they were relocated as Zoo Dvur tried everything possible within the zoo environment. They are still closely associated with the project.
Those that have been transferred back to Kenya are fertile and able to conceive. The near natural semi captive environment is the main reason they were relocated as Zoo Dvur tried everything possible within the zoo environment. They are still closely associated with the project.
For now priority is to get all northern whites in the larger fenced area by April 2010. Fingers crossed they will breed during the year (both males are supposedly to be alternated).
However, for an expedition into Sudan it is much too early days. They would require another injection of $200,000 or so to do so ....
However, for an expedition into Sudan it is much too early days. They would require another injection of $200,000 or so to do so ....
thanks for the link jwer.
pedantic i know, but i read the recently posted interview with berry white and cringed every time either he or the interviewer referred to saving this "species".
whilst i totally accept the need for hybridisation, i'm hoping for parallel preservation of an inbred purebred lineage as well. the idea being that thus hybrids (rather than pure SWR) can be intermittently introduced into the purebred grouping only as needed, keeping the percentage of NWR genes as high as possible.
*disclaimer: i know nothing of the science of genetics
anyone know how many NWR lineages exist in preserved genetic material worldwide?
because if there is a decent number of founders, the entire purebred population could be "rebooted" in future decades when technology improves.
pedantic i know, but i read the recently posted interview with berry white and cringed every time either he or the interviewer referred to saving this "species".
whilst i totally accept the need for hybridisation, i'm hoping for parallel preservation of an inbred purebred lineage as well. the idea being that thus hybrids (rather than pure SWR) can be intermittently introduced into the purebred grouping only as needed, keeping the percentage of NWR genes as high as possible.
*disclaimer: i know nothing of the science of genetics
anyone know how many NWR lineages exist in preserved genetic material worldwide?
because if there is a decent number of founders, the entire purebred population could be "rebooted" in future decades when technology improves.
I dont get your point. Are you asking whether or how much are those four NWR specimen related? Check the link it is there somewhere in FAQ/media section.
Except the wild caught male all of them are sired by two bulls, one of them being the wild caught male. All three CB animals are from one female or - in case of the youngest animal - by her daughter.
I believe Phoenix is referring to museum specimens from which DNA may be able to be obtained
i'm not making a point. i'm asking a question. but no, im not necessarily asking how the current animals in africa are interrelated.
i'm afraid i can't spell it out any clearer than i did..
"anyone know how many NWR lineages exist in preserved genetic material worldwide?"
phoenix
re: Berry White: she is female.
re: genetic lineages in genetic banks.
Have posed that question already to the relevant people.
Will repost when replied to.
re: Berry White: she is female.
re: genetic lineages in genetic banks.
Have posed that question already to the relevant people.
Will repost when replied to.
I can't imagine there would be many individuals represented there
correct!
and yes KB it was posted in the past but cant track it down. a repost of that info would be appreciated.
basically what i'm thinking is, that using conventional methods the amount of NWR genetic variation that is available is so small, that even with a massive amount of luck, the subspecies is still effectively extinct. what we are looking at is the preservation of some NWR genes in new genepool of rhinos that can be the foundations for eventual reintroductions.
a bit of northern blood in there is better than none.
however, if we are contemplating actually preserving the subspecies in pure form, then cloning is the only feasible way of doing so long term.
so from this point of view its important that a genetic bank of samples every single extant individual accessible is collected, and has been collected over the past number of years. i'd be keen to know if there is just enough founders to avert a serious inbreeding problem long term.
i think whats interesting to note is that actually breeding the last living NWR is not actually particularly important to saving the subspecies long term!
since cloning is the only option, it makes no difference if cloned embryo is implanted in a NWR or a SWR surrogate. indeed, its unlikely you would risk such a procedure with a rare living NWR cow anyway!
don't get me wrong, i think they should continue to attempt to breed some pure NWR for the time being, and support the attempt. but effectively the current program in kenya should be seen for what it is. an attempt to integrate some of the NWR genes into a new hybrid population. not an attempt to fully save a taxa.
so until they find some more founders in the wild and as long as there is a bank of all living animals, since it is already effectively extinct (and but a mere subspecies anyway)....
its a very low conservation priority in my books.
but like any conservation initiative, no matter how small - i'll continue to watch the efforts in kenya with much enthusiasm and wish the team the best of luck.
Not likely. To create Dolly the Sheep it took 237 attempts. Most eggs never did anything. Only 29 went on to become embryos, of which only three went fullterm, and only one survived. Cloning is terribly innefficient at this stage. I don't think there are enough frozen NWR eggs to waste in this fashion.
However, the scientist that created Dolly is considering options for the NWR, but has chosen the chimera route instead.
Cloning alternative may help save white rhino - Telegraph
(Note: article is a couple of years old)
Personally, if there is enough genetic material, I'd like to see IVF embryos created and then transplanted into surrugates.
How long is a piece of string? The more founders the better. The faster the population increases (i.e. the more you breed) the greater the genetic diversity. As rhinos are slow breeders the population will be inbred, but whether the effects of inbreeding manifest themselves is another question entirely.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying - hybrid population? Both populations are NWR.
Hix