Strathmorezoo
Well-Known Member
Nuremberg currently have forty five animals in a exhibit that should cater for twenty five, what else could it be if it's not breeding just for the sake of it?
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Tiergarten Nürnberg Nuremberg zoo ...to cull twenty five Guinea Baboons
- Thread starter Strathmorezoo
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Nuremberg currently have forty five animals in a exhibit that should cater for twenty five, what else could it be if it's not breeding just for the sake of it?
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Assuming that the baboons are killed is a manner that doesn't cause the meat to become tainted with harmful chemicals, and that the baboons themselves were hale and hearty prior to their deaths (IE: They don't test positive for diseases that could be later passed onto the carnivores consuming them.), then I see no problem with the baboons bodies being used in such a manner.
Reduce, reuse, and recycle. The circle of life. Many different species of carnivores can and do eat baboons, or at least other primate species, in the wild. Carcass feeding is both enriching and has known health benefits for carnivores.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Death by gunshot or captive bolt gun (The two primary drug-less methods for euthanizing animals) is pretty humane. Why would you even think that Nuremberg Zoo staff wouldn't utilize humane methods to kill these baboons? Germany has pretty strict animal welfare laws you know.
Lafone
Well-Known Member
How are baboons restrained in zoos for captive gun bolt destruction? I am not familiar with how they are destroyed but as you know perhaps you can share a link.
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Strathmorezoo
Well-Known Member
The reason why I said that they seem to be breeding lots babies for the sake of it, is because there are currently forty five animals in an enclosure which should cater for half that number
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Where did I ever say that I knew how baboons were restrained for destruction via captive bolt gun? Nowhere. I just pointed out two things: 1.) That captive bolt guns are an accepted tool to use to humanely euthanize animals & 2.) That given Germany's stringent animal welfare laws, the idea that Nuremberg staff wouldn't choose to destroy the baboons in a humane manner is ludicrous.
I actually don't think that the baboons will be killed using a captive bolt gun. That method requires close quarters and typically, some form of physical restraint as well. Both things that primates tend to find highly stressful, and given that one of the goals behind euthanasia is to minimize stress, I don't think that method of drug-free humane dispatch is thus the best one to use in this specific situation.
I would expect that these baboons will be destroyed via gunshot. The marksmen wouldn't have to get up close to the baboons, could ideally remain hidden so that none of the baboon troop ever sees them, and would allow the baboons to go about their day as if nothing unusual was occurring until the "lights out" moment occurs.
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Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Social groups of primates can be fast breeders, the smaller species especially. If every female has a baby every year, or even one every other year, than it's easy to see how the enclosure could've quickly grown overpopulated if no action was taken by the zoo until now.
That doesn't necessarily mean that Nuremberg Zoo "wants" lots of baby baboons, just that, like most EAZA zoos, they want to provide natural opportunities for their female baboons to breed.
Lafone
Well-Known Member
Taking a random euthanisia example, this interesting article covers the euthanasia of an eldery chimp in Israel and returning her to her group after death for a period. She wasn't shot. At no point is this unreasonable, it could appear however to be 'the norm'.
Looking at reports the main 'shooting' of primates seems to be in escape situations (again, logical) but there is little avaialble information on killing primates with a captive bolt gun or how they would be restrained for it in a way that would be free of drugs which could harm things eating them after that.
If this is a common menthod of euthanisia (hopefully someone will say, one way or another) then it would be hard to use the carcass for feeding due to possible ill effects of the drugs.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ramat-gan-safari-puts-down-elderly-chimpanzee/
Shooting 25 baboons seems to be a fairly dangerous undertaking, weapons in a confined space etc. Captive bolt seems to need some sort of restraint. Guess someone has a link to how this is usually achieved but it seems a far different undertaking to put a primate like a baboon down with a captive bolt than an ungulate.
Looking at reports the main 'shooting' of primates seems to be in escape situations (again, logical) but there is little avaialble information on killing primates with a captive bolt gun or how they would be restrained for it in a way that would be free of drugs which could harm things eating them after that.
If this is a common menthod of euthanisia (hopefully someone will say, one way or another) then it would be hard to use the carcass for feeding due to possible ill effects of the drugs.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/ramat-gan-safari-puts-down-elderly-chimpanzee/
Shooting 25 baboons seems to be a fairly dangerous undertaking, weapons in a confined space etc. Captive bolt seems to need some sort of restraint. Guess someone has a link to how this is usually achieved but it seems a far different undertaking to put a primate like a baboon down with a captive bolt than an ungulate.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
Why? What makes say, a Guinea baboon, more "special" than a domesticated pig?
Contraceptives aren't a magical cure-all with no side-effects. Not all species have effective contraceptives available to use, to say nothing of how using contraceptives long-term can cause permanent damage to reproductive tracts.
Aardwolf
Well-Known Member
I don't think that anyone suggests that breeding and then euthanizing surplus offspring is the best welfare for the offspring - the argument is that it's the best welfare for the parents.
Especially for primates and social carnivores, raising offspring is probably the most complete form of enrichment that exists. For other taxa, too - I had a pair of swans sitting on a nest every year. They never managed to raise many cygnets, but for at least one month of the year, when they were sitting, their lives were 100% the same as those of wild swans in the same situation, never mind the size of the habitat, their flight status, etc.
There also have been problems with contraceptives not being as reversible as zoos would hope them to be, or having side effects, which is why some zoos don't want to dabble with it. At the end of the day, it's a cultural thing between zoos of different regions. American zoos perform population-management driven euthanasia for fish, amphibians, etc, and few people seem to bat an eye. It's just a question of where you draw the line.
Especially for primates and social carnivores, raising offspring is probably the most complete form of enrichment that exists. For other taxa, too - I had a pair of swans sitting on a nest every year. They never managed to raise many cygnets, but for at least one month of the year, when they were sitting, their lives were 100% the same as those of wild swans in the same situation, never mind the size of the habitat, their flight status, etc.
There also have been problems with contraceptives not being as reversible as zoos would hope them to be, or having side effects, which is why some zoos don't want to dabble with it. At the end of the day, it's a cultural thing between zoos of different regions. American zoos perform population-management driven euthanasia for fish, amphibians, etc, and few people seem to bat an eye. It's just a question of where you draw the line.
Wisp O' Mist
Well-Known Member
At the end of the day, we can only speculate. Nuremberg Zoo hasn't announced how they intend to go about killing these baboons in a humane manner that leaves the resulting carcass safe for carnivores to consume afterwards. I merely suggested two common methods of drug-free euthanasia that I know have deem demanded humane by various animal welfare laws and endorsed by regulating bodies world-wide.
Maybe Nuremberg Zoo will use them, maybe they won't. Perhaps they'll feed the baboon bodies to their carnivore species, perhaps they won't. I would be surprised if more information about what the zoo plans to do is released to the public.
Strathmorezoo
Well-Known Member
I think that you are right about the zoo not releasing any more information as apparently German Peta are a bit miffed
Cobi
Well-Known Member
I’m not sure it’s reasonable to suggest a debate is silly just because people don’t agree with you.
As @Aardwolf has noted, raising young is a vital part of the life cycle and enrichment of the lives of social animals like primates - and indeed for herd-dwelling ungulates - and as such, in my opinion, culling can indeed be preferable to contraception when taking into account the well-being of the captive group as a whole.
The ethics of this aren’t straightforward but as I always explain to non-zoo people, zoos are scientific and conservation focussed institutions, not animal sanctuaries. This means that sometimes the greater good and sustainability of the captive population need to take precedence over giving life-long care to a particular individual.
I do understand why this is a serious problem for many people. However, I do also see some solid arguments for it which aren't silly:
- It allows far more natural behavior and enrichment for both the prey/monkey group and the carnivores.
- Very likely, the prey animals/monkeys are going to lead a far better life than regularly bred cows, pigs etc Also, they live, die and get eaten all in one place just like in the wild (but probably they'll die in a far less cruel manner than most wild animals would). No transport for culling, no further transport and distribution with cooling trucks etc needed. And the meat quality will be better as well.
- It also makes zoos far more flexible when optimizing populations, reacting to wider developments etc. Of course, this is particularly important for endangered species. It may not be a proper argument for each species.
If we were talking about having zoos breed their own goats, pigs, guinea pigs, rats etc to improve the life and quality of their prey animals, I think no one would object. I think it mainly has to do with the image of exotic animals. The Danish example was mentioned. They culled the giraffe and did an anatomic demonstration for interested people, before feeding it to the lions. Many people attended, many people didn't, hardly anyone complained. But I think many Danes know about farming life (I have only been there about 4 times but this was my impression). So it probably isn't that much of a shock to them anyways...
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If done in this way, I have no problem. This is the right way to do such a thing, the lions do need to eat after all. In fact, I believe this is the same anatomic demonstration I've watched of a giraffe before.
I do take issue If animals are being simply culled then discarded. I concede this may be an overly ideal view, there are almost certainly difficulties and barriers to only killing to feed.
Strathmorezoo
Well-Known Member
Clearly not in this situation
Strathmorezoo
Well-Known Member
I personally in all my years of working with primates,have never heard of any primates being euthanized using captive bolt pistol and shooting so many would require a silencer