Odysea/Butterfly Wonderland may be coming to Buena Park, CA!

[Local_Shark]

This is some pretty massive aquarium news that I think got lost in the shuffle of November 2024: Boardwalk Enterprises, the company that owns Odysea Aquarium and Butterfly Wonderland in Scottsdale, has entered into an exclusive negotiating agreement to build a new complex on a large lot on the popular Beach Boulevard, in the LA/Orange County suburb of Buena Park, CA!

This LA Times report from last November provides some detail about the plan, after its unanimous city council approval. It would be a half mile from Knott’s Berry Farm and right across from the other local attractions like Medieval Times and the Pirates! dinner adventure. It would also be easily the largest aquarium facility to ever be constructed in Orange County, as well as another zoological facility in the form of the planned butterfly attraction. They describe the latter as “a rain forest meets British tea garden” with thousands of free-flying butterflies. The aquarium project doesn’t have a ton of detail given in the description, but they say it will feature “sharks, penguins, sea turtles, otters and jellyfish”, and is billed as basically a second Odysea right here in California. Odysea’s president apparently specifically referenced how “Large sharks are very iconic in nature, and they will draw guests from far away”…so who knows what manner of species that could entail. Either way, if it’s anywhere close to the size of Odysea, it would rival or perhaps even easily exceed the size of Aquarium of the Pacific, and take over the mantle of second-largest aquarium/oceanarium in Southern California after SeaWorld San Diego.

The plan would be a 2.5 year development process after a 9 month negotiating period that was unanimously approved to begin in November of last year. There hasn’t been much word since, but it seems like the project is moving forward, as this update (with some pretty massive shark focused concept art!) was posted this past May. This is all extremely exciting, and as a resident of South LA County living barely miles away from Buena Park, I certainly hope that it will come to pass!

 

[DavidBrown]

This is a second attempt to build a big butterfly attraction in the last decade. The first one did not work out: Buena Park to get $25m Butterfly Palladium in 2019

Does it seem weird that they want to build a big aquarium relatively close to the Aquarium of the Pacific, the Legoland SeaLife, the Birch Aquarium, and SeaWorld? The region is not lacking aquariums.

 

[Local_Shark]

This is a second attempt to build a big butterfly attraction in the last decade. The first one did not work out: Buena Park to get $25m Butterfly Palladium in 2019

It looks like this project is sort of the successor to that one, but it’s also got significantly more and stronger capital support behind it. Boardwalk has been hugely successful in Scottsdale.

Does it seem weird that they want to build a big aquarium relatively close to the Aquarium of the Pacific, the Legoland SeaLife, the Birch Aquarium, and SeaWorld? The region is not lacking aquariums.

Speaking as a very local resident (I won’t say exactly what suburb of LA I live in, but let’s just say it’s very close to Knotts/BP), it’s really not gonna be close to any of those facilities besides AOP. In that order, the mileage is: AOP (21 miles by car), SeaLife Carlsbad (70 miles), Birch (89 miles), and finally SeaWorld (98 miles). The facility it’ll actually be closest to is the very small aquarium section at Discovery Cube in Santa Ana, which is about 11 miles away. Realistically, the area can absolutely support another aquarium, as the only large one in LA County is AOP and there is no large one in Orange County at all. SoCal is a lot bigger and more spread out/sprawling than folks not from here might think, though I know you yourself are. I can definitely say that Orlando supports SeaLife Orlando and SeaWorld Orlando fine enough, not to mention the Seas with Nemo and Friends and the aquarium at Orlando Science Center (though those have other associated attractions). The two former facilities are less than 10 miles apart - and Orlando as a metro area has something like 1/6 of the actual residents of LA/OC (~2 million people to ~12 million), with similar tourism but also probably slightly less. Boardwalk also has some experience in those department, as they are competing directly with two other aquaria in the greater Phoenix metro area (SeaLife Arizona and Wildlife World’s aquarium, all within ~30 miles). I wager it will work, especially as the theme park district in Buena Park is extremely well traveled.

 

[Great Argus]

it’s really not gonna be close to any of those facilities besides AOP. In that order, the mileage is: AOP (21 miles by car), SeaLife Carlsbad (70 miles), Birch (89 miles), and finally SeaWorld (98 miles)

Considering all of those are an hour and a half or less drive time, I'd say that's pretty close. AotP in particular is really not that far, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out should it go through.

Realistically, the area can absolutely support another aquarium, as the only large one in LA County is AOP and there is no large one in Orange County at all.

Well to be fair Orange County is not that large. Though I think if a metro area can support another larger aquarium it's probably LA. The prevalence of the site to Knott's and Disney could certainly bring the traffic (and possibly hurt AotP a bit by becoming a farther option). Interested to see if this project goes forwards.

 

[Local_Shark]

Considering all of those are an hour and a half or less drive time, I'd say that's pretty close. AotP in particular is really not that far, it'll be interesting to see how that plays out should it go through.

Ah, but you fail to tack on SoCal traffic lmao. (/s)
To chart what I’d say is the typical drive for me to these places (I live pretty close to the planned project like I said): AOP ~30 minutes (can be a lot worse depending on day and time of day, i.e. port traffic), SeaLife/Legoland ~1.25 hours (can definitely be worse, it really depends on Huntington Beach, Pendleton, and then Carlsbad traffic), Birch ~1.5 hours (same there, very dependent on Carlsbad/Pendleton too), SeaWorld 2 hours (Carlsbad + more usually closer to SD). That’s probably the average drive that most tourists experience if not worse, I’m sure locals can manage the traffic better, of course, and sometimes I do but honestly it’s pretty much always some degree of struggle. I’m not sure where you and David are from in CA, but I imagine you have some idea lol. So yeah, I think ultimately this will be seen as sort of the OC-centric option, going along with Disneyland and Knotts as the major destinations there (saving people a long drive to LB like the Santa Ana Zoo does for folks not trying to drive to LA Zoo). I think it can definitely carve out a niche that way.

It probably will become a direct competitor to AOP due to the relative proximity - and I think frankly that’s a good thing. AOP has rested on its laurels far too long, and a real bit of competition could genuinely help both places. Iron sharpens iron as they say. I really think LA can support both, especially as they’re definitely going to take very different approaches (AOP is of course extremely Pacific Ocean-centric and hardly has any freshwater exhibits, and has leaned into much more local stuff of late; while OdySea, if it’s similar to AZ, will definitely have much more freshwater stuff and a much more eclectic collection featuring many if not mostly non-local animals). Also, frankly, LA can support more because it simply does not have as world-class a facility as Shedd, National Aquarium Baltimore, or Georgia to name a few similarly-sized cities. I think that the two aquariums combined, plus a bunch of smaller scattered ones like Cabrillo and Roundhouse among others, basically adds up to about a Georgia/Shedd/Monterey/National worth of exhibits.

 

[Great Argus]

To chart what I’d say is the typical drive for me to these places (I live pretty close to the planned project like I said): AOP ~30 minutes (can be a lot worse depending on day and time of day, i.e. port traffic), SeaLife/Legoland ~1.25 hours (can definitely be worse, it really depends on Carlsbad traffic), Birch ~1.5 hours (same there, very dependent on Carlsbad/Pendleton too), SeaWorld 2 hours (Carlsbad + more usually closer to SD).

Traffic certainly adds, yes - but even 2 hours one way is still very reasonable.

It probably will become a direct competitor to AOP due to the relative proximity - and I think frankly that’s a good thing. AOP has rested on its laurels far too long, and a real bit of competition could genuinely help both places. Iron sharpens iron as they say.

I generally feel relative "complacency" in larger AZA facilities falls to reasons other than competition. MBA, Shedd, and Georgia have no real competitors anywhere near them but generally hold their heads high and keep moving things forward anyway. Two large, relatively similar facilities have high potential to butt heads and fight for attendance. The LA metro area is populous enough it can probably work out, but the relative proximity will definitely be interesting.

 

[Local_Shark]

I generally feel relative "complacency" in larger AZA facilities falls to reasons other than competition. MBA, Shedd, and Georgia have no real competitors anywhere near them but generally hold their heads high and keep moving things forward anyway. Two large, relatively similar facilities have high potential to butt heads and fight for attendance. The LA metro area is populous enough it can probably work out, but the relative proximity will definitely be interesting.

Oh I don’t disagree at all, but I think in this case it definitely could result in something of an actual arms race/competition. AOP is a good deal in flux at the moment - the facility is aging, the post-COVID changes haven’t all been amazingly received, and there have been rumors of leadership changes. I get the sense that it’s entering a critical time, and another facility in the 30 minute range away might push it in a direction of innovation to compete rather than further stagnation. We’ll see how it goes but I think it could be quite fascinating and certainly I believe it’ll be beneficial - at a minimum it’s more animals to see, potentially new innovative exhibits at both facilities to enjoy, and more jobs in the field.

 

[Persephone]

I can’t help but wonder if the aquarium market is getting a little oversaturated, not just in this specific case but generally. I have one dedicated aquarium readily accessible to me. The next closest is a SeaLife three hours away. Discounting that, there’s St. Louis, Newport, and Cleveland 4-5 hours away. Granted, the one local aquarium is Shedd, so I’m hardly dissatisfied with this arrangement.

I think there are a few big differences between zoos and aquariums. Basically any metro area of any size can support at least a small zoo. It’s outright weird when a bigger city doesn’t have one, with Vegas and Charlotte being the only two notable examples. The largest three metro areas have multiple. This works because of some mix of philanthropy and tax support. Basically every zoo is either a non-profit or a part of the local parks department, making those avenues a natural fit.

Aquariums are mostly for-profit creatures with high costs to build and operate that get passed onto the visitor. They’re almost solely dependent on their revenues to keep afloat. A zoo can weather a few bad years by using local support in ways I’m not sure a private aquarium can. Diluting the attendance for each aquarium matters a lot more, then.

This isn’t necessarily the first time a U.S. metro has had two free-standing aquariums, but most of those were a smaller entity coexisting with a larger one. SeaWorld and SeaLife fill different niches. Scrips seems like a very different beast than either. The closest to this I can think of is MBA and Aquarium of the Bay… and the latter is not exactly in great financial shape at the moment. I guess there’s Downtown Aquarium and Moody Gardens in Houston, but those seem a bit different than standard public aquariums.

Maybe I’m wrong. Florida seems to have an aquarium an hour down every road and they’re all holding for now. Miami is building a second aquarium almost identical to their current one. I’m just worried that if times get lean, the American aquarium industry needs a bit of a buffer.

 

[Local_Shark]

Maybe I’m wrong. Florida seems to have an aquarium an hour down every road and they’re all holding for now. Miami is building a second aquarium almost identical to their current one. I’m just worried that if times get lean, the American aquarium industry needs a bit of a buffer.

This is a good, thoughtful post, and I don’t think you’re inherently wrong at all. The only thing I’d say is I think you’re overestimating the number of actual for-profit aquariums in the US a tad. In terms of the continental States, the major ones are: 7 SeaLifes, Adventure Aquarium, Newport Aquarium, the current OdySea, 3 SeaWorlds, 2 Downtowns, technically Seas with Nemo and Friends (if you want to count that one despite it being a part of Disney World), and the handful of remaining former SeaQuest-affiliated places that are open (I believe there are 6 of those). There’s a couple of other small totally independent facilities that are for-profit, those being places like Daytona Aquarium and Rainforest Adventure and Long Island Aquarium, and some that are somewhat ambiguous like Shark Reef of Mandalay Bay (technically part of a for-profit hotel) and the Wonders of Wildlife Aquarium and Museum that’s operated by Cabela’s/BassPro (but I think technically run by their affiliated charity, and yes it’s stated on their website that they’re a nonprofit). All told, that’s about 25-30, maybe 40 at the most, for-profit institutions out of over 170. The rest actually are, like you mentioned, non-profits or run by the state, and the vast majority of the ones that you probably most respect as institutions are included in this (Georgia, Shedd, Monterey, National Aquarium, etc.). In that regard, most can probably indeed weather the storm of a recession somewhat with assistance from philanthropy or their local communities. I do agree that the for-profit market has certainly boomed in the last decade and a half since the Great Recession, but again, it’s still just a handful of the US institutions, and for the time being it’s only growing incrementally with the (blessed) demise of the awful SeaQuest brand and the Miami SeaQuarium and Gulf World both shutting down long-term.

Personally I’d say the most apt comparison here is probably Aquarium of the Bay and Steinhart Aquarium rather than Monterey. Both are in the San Francisco metro and in fact are mere miles apart (7.7 by car to be exact), and could easily be visited in one day. AOB actually is a nonprofit (and even Smithsonian-affiliated still!), though it’s had some monetary issues as you mentioned that have resulted in its AZA cert being lost, while Steinhart is a state-run aquarium inside the California Academy of Sciences. So it’s a somewhat similar dynamic to the nonprofit AOP and for-profit OdySea. Those two institutions have managed to coexist for about 30 years and at least one major recession now, despite both being what I would call at least midsize metro aquaria (i.e., having at least a couple of tanks over 100,000 or one over 300,000 gallons). While you’re correct that AOB is having money trouble, it’s not because of a lack of guests…it’s because of a shady president who allegedly embezzled millions, and that person or people are now gone and AOB is recovering nicely. So I think that if they continue to manage well, we can probably say that the idea presented in this thread would also.

 

[Persephone]

@Local_Shark Great points, don’t mean to nitpick, but I’m pretty sure the Ripley’s are either for-profit or in a similar “closely affiliated with a corporation” field as some others. I guess there’s also Epcot but that does not function as an typical aquarium financially so it’s more or less irrelevant to this conversation.

I honestly forgot Georgia was non-profit and also forgot about a few other aquariums being foundation run rather than for-profit. Not entirely sure how robust their bottom lines are, but I suspect they could weather if things got bad.

 

[Local_Shark]

@Local_Shark Great points, don’t mean to nitpick, but I’m pretty sure the Ripley’s are either for-profit or in a similar “closely affiliated with a corporation” field as some others. I guess there’s also Epcot but that does not function as a typical aquarium financially so it’s more or less irrelevant to this conversation.

No need to apologize, you got me there, I did completely forget about the two Ripleys at Gatlinburg and Myrtle Beach. I guess we can take them into that up-to-40 buffer zone of total for-profits that I said lol. But yes, they definitely would count, and I think that makes the actual total of major for-profit ones by the four or five significant chains right around 30. Ripley’s are really, really good for-profits that have extremely robust conservation and education programs so they’re kind of easy to forget about - just recently they had the first truly successful sand tiger shark birth in captivity! And yeah, the one at Epcot is “The Seas with Nemo and Friends.”

 

[SwampDonkey]

Ripley’s are really, really good for-profits that have extremely robust conservation and education programs

I totally agree. Ripley's Aquarium of Canada is one of my all time favorite aquariums - it is really fantastic and up to the level of the "greats", IMO. I have not been to the other locations, so I can't comment on them.

 

[SwampDonkey]

This is super cool, I really like OdySea, it would be interesting to see how they take this aquarium. Butterfly Wonderland in Arizona is a lot of fun too, the herp and aquatic area there is also done well and makes the attraction worth it, even if you are not "into" butterflies.

 

[Local_Shark]

I totally agree. Ripley's Aquarium of Canada is one of my all time favorite aquariums - it is really fantastic and up to the level of the "greats", IMO. I have not been to the other locations, so I can't comment on them.

I’ve been to Myrtle Beach and I was a big fan, especially of their absolutely enormous behind the scenes section. It’s a separate building that’s so huge it may as well be an entire second aquarium. The best part is you can tour it for an insanely good rate, it’s like $20 extra to get a tram over and a guided tour of the entire thing. When I went back in 2022 they had their new baby sand tiger there, and the two green sawfish originally from Ripley’s Ontario that were sent for a breeding program (now they’re switched permanently to Myrtle Beach on exhibit, so they have green and largetooth per their website, plus the new great hammerhead that I haven’t yet seen!). They had an absolutely massive secondary tank for adult sand tigers as well, which I believe is a staging area for sending some to other aquaria along with research and conservation on site.

This is super cool, I really like OdySea, it would be interesting to see how they take this aquarium. Butterfly Wonderland in Arizona is a lot of fun too, the herp and aquatic area there is also done well and makes the attraction worth it, even if you are not "into" butterflies.

I would actually have been really happy if they decided to bring a Ripley’s to California, but I’m totally cool with OdySea becoming a multi-aquarium company! Lol. And yeah I’m fascinated to see what they do with the butterfly garden, especially because they said it would be an “indoor rainforest” - maybe that means even more animals?

 

[snowleopard]

Compared to the many Sea Life Aquariums (11 are now in the USA) and the SeaQuest establishments (all gradually closing down or being taken over), I welcome with open arms a second OdySea location as the one in Arizona is a solid facility and I enjoyed my visit there in 2023. I think there would have been some studies completed that tested the waters (pun intended) on whether another large aquarium could possibly succeed in southern California.

California and Florida combined have around 60 aquariums and the USA has approximately 180 in total, so one more won't make much of a difference. The traffic is already horrendous in that part of the world and so another attraction cannot add even more congestion than what's already there, although I do wonder if the Aquarium of the Pacific is a bit worried about their attendance numbers if an OdySea opens up nearby.

For whatever reason, large numbers of zoos and aquariums can often thrive next to each other. California (70) and Florida (130) have a combined 200 attractions that one could deem a 'zoo', including all the small places, and almost all of them remain open with closures being an odd occurrence in those states. Germany has 600 zoos in an equivalent space as Montana, and 80 million Germans love zoos and one rarely ever hears of a zoo or aquarium closing down there.

I sometimes think of zoos and aquariums in comparison to fast food restaurants. We've all taken a highway exit and driven down a road that has had a McDonald's, Wendy's, Dairy Queen, Burger King, KFC and a Subway literally seconds apart. Germany, and to a lesser extent California and Florida, do that with zoos.

 

[Local_Shark]

I sometimes think of zoos and aquariums in comparison to fast food restaurants. We've all taken a highway exit and driven down a road that has had a McDonald's, Wendy's, Dairy Queen, Burger King, KFC and a Subway literally seconds apart. Germany, and to a lesser extent California and Florida, do that with zoos.

I completely agree with all your points, but this analogy is particularly excellent lol. It really does feel that way sometimes, and it’s definitely what I think could happen here - OdySea will almost certainly have a broader range of focus and bringing a different variety of animals than pretty much any of the aquariums that currently exist in the greater Los Angeles metro area. It’ll be the Shake Shack to their In-N-Out!