Flamingo Land Orang-utans at Flamingoland

Parrotsandrew

Parrotsandrew

Well-Known Member
10+ year member
A couple of months or so ago on a Flamingo Land photo thread Cat-Man asked about apes kept at Flamingo Park/Land. I said I had some details of the place's Orang-utans, and finally here they are. With thanks to Tim Kniveton of the Bartlett Society who gave me this information in February 2001 (eek, I hadn't realised it was that long ago!).

Male Charlie, wild born c 1959, obtained February 1963, died 21st June 1968
subspecies not known

Male Alex, wild born c 1961, obtained February 1963, died 21st June1968
subspecies not known

Apparently the above animals were named after two males at Regent's Park at the same time. Why did they die on the same day?

Female Janie (Bornean), wild born 1962, obtained June (?) 1964, to Belle Vue July 1969

Female Mandy (Bornean), wild born 1961, obtained June 1964, died 10th December 1975
Mother of Cody

Male Adam (Sumatran), wild born 1962, obtained by Belle Vue from Tyseley Pet
Stores July 1963, exchanged for Janie July 1969, to Colchester 1976
Father of Cody

Male Cody (hybrid), born Flamingo Park 28th July 1973, died 27th May 1980
The subject of Keith Laidler's "The Talking Ape" 1980 (I have a press cutting which calls him "Codak" - Cody that is, not Keith Laidler:))

Male Anak (hybrid), born Dudley Zoo 2nd September 1973, died 27th November 1980(?)
(no details of transfer date)

Mr Kniveton has put a question mark against Anak's date of death, and there was definitely an Orang at Flamingo Land in April 1984 as it featured in the first instalment of the "Yorkshire Post's" "Animals Behind Bars" ("Yorkshire's zoos of shame etc") articles. Was this Anak? In the final chapter of his book Mr Laidler says he arranged for the zoo to acquire a second infant Orang as a companion for Cody after the end of the language study (c 1976 I believe). This specimen was called Little Dick (no sniggering at the back), so who was he? Was he actually Anak? But why would Mr Laidler have had to arrange that as Flamingo Land (the name changed in 1976) and Dudley were both Scotia zoos?

Mr Kniveton makes the point that a transfer of adult animals between Flamingo Park and Dudley could have resulted in pure-bred subspecific animals instead of the hybrids bred at both zoos.
 
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Parrotsandrew said:
But why would Mr Laidler have had to arrange that as Flamingo Land (the name changed in 1976) and Dudley were both Scotia zoos?
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I think this may have been a little artistic license for the book, though he may well have encouraged or suggested the transfer in the first place.

I would be very interested to see any photos of the much-travelled Sumatran male 'Adam' at either Flamingo Park or at Colchester. He later went on to Bristol and finally to Santillana in Spain where he has descendants. His grandson 'Silvestre' is currently being raised at Monkeyworld in Dorset.
 
Parrotsandrew said:
A

Mr Kniveton makes the point that a transfer of adult animals between Flamingo Park and Dudley could have resulted in pure-bred subspecific animals instead of the hybrids bred at both zoos.
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Was it not later than the 70s that the idea that the two were sub-species was developed/appreciated? (Let alone separate species, as is now promulgated)
 
Davef68 said:
Was it not later than the 70s that the idea that the two were sub-species was developed/appreciated? (Let alone separate species, as is now promulgated)
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I don't know, but Keith Laidler does mention that Adam was Sumatran and Mandy Bornean.
 
mazfc said:
Is Janie the same Janie that is now in San Diego?
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It is indeed, below are a movements for Janey during her life (Taken from the studbook):
Flamingo land [Malton]-June 1964
Belle Vue [Manchester]-July 1964
Weybridge-15th November 1977
San Diego Zoo-28th March 1984

Her offspring are Lowell (Born 18th October 1984)[Now at Seneca Park Zoo]. Amy (Born 23rd September 1983)[Now at Monkey World].

Amy's son is Gordon, who is also at Monkey World making Janey a grandmother. Janey was born in 1962 give or take a few years.:)
 
Pertinax said:
I think this may have been a little artistic license for the book, though he may well have encouraged or suggested the transfer in the first place.

I would be very interested to see any photos of the much-travelled Sumatran male 'Adam' at either Flamingo Park or at Colchester. He later went on to Bristol and finally to Santillana in Spain where he has descendants. His grandson 'Silvestre' is currently being raised at Monkeyworld in Dorset.
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Maybe so. I'm afraid I don't have any photos of the Orangs at Flamingo Park/Land. Their accommodation was not at all conducive to photography. Looking at Keith Laidler's book more closely, it says Cody was short for "Kodak". He was so named because he was "a little brownie". Younger ZooChatters may not understand that!

By the way Pertinax, have you doctored my thread title?!!:D I'd edited it to Orang-utans at Flamingo Park/Land! Not that the main title "Orang-utans" had changed. Just wondering.
 
Jordan-Jaguar97 said:
It is indeed, below are a movements for Janey during her life (Taken from the studbook):
Flamingo land [Malton]-June 1964
Belle Vue [Manchester]-July 1964
Weybridge-15th November 1977
San Diego Zoo-28th March 1984

Her offspring are Lowell (Born 18th October 1984)[Now at Seneca Park Zoo]. Amy (Born 23rd September 1983)[Now at Monkey World].

Amy's son is Gordon, who is also at Monkey World making Janey a grandmother. Janey was born in 1962 give or take a few years.:)
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Thank-you Jordan, that's saved me some typing - had I been six minutes earlier...I see you have 1964 for Belle Vue - is that a typing error? I have 1969 and 1964 would have meant only a month at Flamingo Park (not that that would be a surprise in those days). The dates I have from Mr Kniveton say 27th October 1977 for Weybridge (Gordon Mills) (I'm desperate to say it's not unusual to have a discrepancy, sorry) (now I want to say I saw the light on the night....shut up me), but I have the same one for San Diego.
 
Parrotsandrew said:
Thank-you Jordan, that's saved me some typing - had I been six minutes earlier...I see you have 1964 for Belle Vue - is that a typing error? I have 1969 and 1964 would have meant only a month at Flamingo Park (not that that would be a surprise in those days). The dates I have from Mr Kniveton say 27th October 1977 for Weybridge (Gordon Mills) (I'm desperate to say it's not unusual to have a discrepancy, sorry) (now I want to say I saw the light on the night....shut up me), but I have the same one for San Diego.
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Sorry! I looked at the different month but same year!:rolleyes: Well I know she went to Weybridge in 1977 either in October or November, studbook says November but they can be wrong. Does she have any other offspring apart from the two, which have been mentioned?
 
Mr Kniveton's information says she has two offspring, but he has the male's name as Louis Junior. Perhaps it was changed. He was at Wings Wildlife, California in 2001. Both offspring were sired by Louis, hence the "junior"!
 
Parrotsandrew said:
I don't know, but Keith Laidler does mention that Adam was Sumatran and Mandy Bornean.
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Belle Vue originally had 2.1. Orangs; Harold, Adam, Bobo. Only Adam was Sumatran.
Flamingo had 0.2; Mandy & Janie. Both Bornean

Adam was swapped for Janie. thus giving Flamingo I.1. and Belle Vue 1.2.

This then meant both Flamingo Pk and Dudley each had a mixed subspecies pair, so as TK said, if a swap had been made between them, there would have been two pairs of correct subspecies. However in those days not much attention was being paid to that sort of detail and hybrid babies were commonly produced.

I saw and photographed Mandy and Janie at Flamingo Park on one occassion when they were adult. Mandy was fat, Janie was smaller and slim. Both had curious blisters covering their mouths and lips.

I saw The Belle Vue Orangutans several times, the last being shortly before it closed, but can't actually remember seeing Janie after her transfer, though she would have been there along with Harold and Bobo.

I saw the Weybridge(ex Belle Vue) orangutans once and photographed Janie there too. She had not changed at all in appearance, and still had the old marks of the pustules on her mouth.

I saw Adam at both Belle Vue, as a youngster and much later at Bristol(many times) but not at his intermediate homes at Flamingo Park & Colchester. When he arrived at Bristol in the mid 80's he was very fat and unfit, from cramped/unsuitable caging. He later became very slim again, probably because of the activity provided by the company of females, rather than the suitability of the Bristol enclosure.
 
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orangs at Flamingo Park

There was a fire in the orang house and Charle & Alex succumbed to the smoke.
I have a photo of one of them in the mid sixties,which I will upload
 
mukisi said:
There was a fire in the orang house and Charle & Alex succumbed to the smoke.
I have a photo of one of them in the mid sixties,which I will upload
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Thank-you for that information mukisi. Mr Kniveton had speculated that there may have been a fire and wondered if the females had been at Cleethorpes at the time and so survived. Or were they perhaps in a part of the house not so badly affected?
 
Jordan-Jaguar97 said:
It is indeed, below are a movements for Janey during her life (Taken from the studbook):
Flamingo land [Malton]-June 1964
Belle Vue [Manchester]-July 1964
Weybridge-15th November 1977
San Diego Zoo-28th March 1984

Her offspring are Lowell (Born 18th October 1984)[Now at Seneca Park Zoo]. Amy (Born 23rd September 1983)[Now at Monkey World].

Amy's son is Gordon, who is also at Monkey World making Janey a grandmother. Janey was born in 1962 give or take a few years.:)
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Gordon is a father so Janey is a great-grandmother.
 
There is currently a postcard for sale on Ebay of an Orangutan female at Belle Vue Zoo cuddling a baby Chimpanzee. Pretty sure that is Janie, (its not the other female 'Bobo')
 
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