Orbicular Batfish in Florida???

Yoshistar888

Yoshistar888

Well-Known Member
5+ year member
In the last few weeks multiple Orbicular batfish (Platax orbicularis) have been caught of the coast of Florida, although these are undoubtedly aquarium releases, with the amount that have been seen recently there is potential of establishment if not acted upon. The Golden Spadefish (Platax boersii) such as this individual below have also been caught. This is concerning as the marine environment in Florida is already under serious threat with lionfish. Although theoreticaly batfish won't cause too many problems compared to other invasives, they will compete with the native Atlantic Spadefish (Chaetodipterus faber), and other fish.
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EDIT: This Golden Spadefish was caught in Virginia, not Florida although the Orbicular batfish are being consistently caught in Florida.
 
Yoshistar888 said:
In the last few weeks multiple Orbicular batfish (Platax orbicularis) have been caught of the coast of Florida, although these are undoubtedly aquarium releases, with the amount that have been seen recently there is potential of establishment if not acted upon. The Golden Spadefish (Platax boersii) such as this individual below have also been caught. This is concerning as the marine environment in Florida is already under serious threat with lionfish. Although theoreticaly batfish won't cause too many problems compared to other invasives, they will compete with the native Atlantic Spadefish (Chaetodipterus faber), and other fish.
120761223_4660172394023439_6003340495024270320_n.jpg


EDIT: This Golden Spadefish was caught in Virginia, not Florida although the Orbicular batfish are being consistently caught in Florida.
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Source? I can find no recent report of either Boer's or Orbicular Batfish from the US. Only finding reports of less than half a dozen records across the last 20 years and all were captured. (Can't find any report of Boer's at all.)
 
Great Argus said:
Source? I can find no recent report of either Boer's or Orbicular Batfish from the US. Only finding reports of less than half a dozen records across the last 20 years and all were captured. (Can't find any report of Boer's at all.)
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These aren't scientific reports, people wanting fish identification on facebook.
 
You do realize you're claiming Orbicular Batfish are invasive on the grounds a couple people in a private Facebook group have recently asked for an ID. There appears to be no substantiated information that the species is indeed established. The batfish is a known potentially invasive species and is watched for, and given the status remains as extirpated far as I can find, it is not unreasonable to assume that the species is not established.
 
Great Argus said:
You do realize you're claiming Orbicular Batfish are invasive on the grounds a couple people in a private Facebook group have recently asked for an ID. There appears to be no substantiated information that the species is indeed established. The batfish is a known potentially invasive species and is watched for, and given the status remains as extirpated far as I can find, it is not unreasonable to assume that the species is not established.
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I never claimed they are established or invasive, I said there is a likelyhood of them becoming established and the possible impacts if it happens.

My response to bird and bats was that they questioned that they weren’t established and I said along the lines of there is no evidence to confirm or deny establishment.

This is about potential.


Directly quoting from my original post. “with the amount that have been seen recently there is potential of establishment if not acted upon”
 
Great Argus said:
You do realize you're claiming Orbicular Batfish are invasive on the grounds a couple people in a private Facebook group have recently asked for an ID. There appears to be no substantiated information that the species is indeed established. The batfish is a known potentially invasive species and is watched for, and given the status remains as extirpated far as I can find, it is not unreasonable to assume that the species is not established.
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Sadly, I've found that people tend to ignore populations like this because they cannot prove they are established. This is a shame, because you miss out on interesting data. I actually keep track of reports like these, and it's tough to find info. I have to search unconfirmed eBird reports, reports of social media and blogs, and casual iNaturalist observations. And in doing this, I've found out about populations I'm pretty sure ARE established that everyone else is ignoring. Given that there have been multiple reports of this, I would not be surprised if this species is already established. In fact I am willing to bet it has been for some time.
 
birdsandbats said:
Sadly, I've found that people tend to ignore populations like this because they cannot prove they are established. This is a shame, because you miss out on interesting data. I actually keep track of reports like these, and it's tough to find info. I have to search unconfirmed eBird reports, reports of social media and blogs, and casual iNaturalist observations. And in doing this, I've found out about populations I'm pretty sure ARE established that everyone else is ignoring. Given that there have been multiple reports of this, I would not be surprised if this species is already established. In fact I am willing to bet it has been for some time.
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I'd be willing to bet that the relevant authorities are not ignoring these catches :p

Would you mind sharing some of these populations you think are established?

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I'd be willing to bet that the relevant authorities are not ignoring these catches :p

Would you mind sharing some of these populations you think are established?

~Thylo
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One great example is Mandarin Ducks in Utah. Not much reference to it online but if you din they have been present since the 90s, it's just that no one pays attention. Another great example is the Burmese Red Junglefowl in Georgia. There are thousands in the state with sightings since the 1960s, yet the ABA refuses to acknowledge they existence and they are not visible in eBird.
 
birdsandbats said:
One great example is Mandarin Ducks in Utah. Not much reference to it online but if you din they have been present since the 90s, it's just that no one pays attention.
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Mandarin Ducks are established in mini groups enough places it's not exactly noteworthy.

birdsandbats said:
Another great example is the Burmese Red Junglefowl in Georgia. There are thousands in the state with sightings since the 1960s, yet the ABA refuses to acknowledge they existence and they are not visible in eBird.
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Plenty of domestic Red Junglefowl reports visible though. Also Red Junglefowl is now listed under ABA, with the inclusion of Hawaii. Most likely the reason the Georgia population isn't listed is because they primarily occur in one city.
 
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Great Argus said:
Mandarin Ducks are established in mini groups enough places it's not exactly noteworthy.



Plenty of domestic Red Junglefowl reports visible though. Also Red Junglefowl is now listed under ABA, with the inclusion of Hawaii. Most likely the reason the Georgia population isn't listed is on grounds of purity of the group.
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As far as I can tell only two US states have Mandarin Duck populations.

The Georgia population is pure spadiceus.
 
birdsandbats said:
As far as I can tell only two US states have Mandarin Duck populations.

The Georgia population is pure spadiceus.
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Utah is not one of them looking at the Ebird reports. Most reports only have one bird, there are no records since the first week of June this year, and nearly all records are over two years old. That is not an established population.
I also happen to know a birdwatcher who lives in the area most reports are from and she has never seen one far as I know. And she's an excellent photographer so a Mandarin Duck would be a good target.

Far as the Junglefowl, I see they are pure, but centered almost entirely in a single town. They're established but highly restricted and thus unlikely to be accepted by the ABA.
 
Great Argus said:
Utah is not one of them looking at the Ebird reports. Most reports only have one bird, there are no records since the first week of June this year, and nearly all records are over two years old. That is not an established population.
I also happen to know a birdwatcher who lives in the area most reports are from and she has never seen one far as I know. And she's an excellent photographer so a Mandarin Duck would be a good target.

Far as the Junglefowl, I see they are pure, but centered almost entirely in a single town. They're established but highly restricted and thus unlikely to be accepted by the ABA.
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I don't get why the ABA doesn't like restricted exotics. The size of their range has nothing to do with how well established they are.
 
birdsandbats said:
I don't get why the ABA doesn't like restricted exotics. The size of their range has nothing to do with how well established they are.
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Crested Myna and Budgerigar would seem to disagree. Spotted Dove too is almost gone now, as are the San Francisco parrot populations.
 
Great Argus said:
Crested Myna and Budgerigar would seem to disagree. Spotted Dove too is almost gone now, as are the San Francisco parrot populations.
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Crested Myna and Budgerigar were fine until they were out-competed by increasing starling populations. Spotted Dove had been around for almost a century before it started to experience massive declines, so I think it's fair to say that species was established. I don't know much about the San Francisco parrots.
 
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