Paignton Zoo Paignton Zoo 2022

It sounds like the Gorillas currently at Paignton will be there for life. @Pertinax and at @Gigit (The Ape experts) do you think any further Gorillas will join the current troop. Regarding the Orangutans do you think any more Females will move in. I would like Tatau to return. Practicality this is very realistic. Tatau is at the age when offspring leave their Mums. Not only this but Tatau is not that comfortable around Tiga the Male she’s been paired with at Colchester. Most importantly Tatau is/would be the perfect play mate for Natalia. Since Gambira’s passing their is a vacancy for another Female.
 
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The Hedgehog said:
Regarding the Orangutans do you think any more Females will move in. I would like Tatau to return. Practicality this is very realistic. Tatau is at the age when offspring leave their Mums. Not only this but Tatau is not that comfortable around Tiga the Male she’s been paired with at Colchester. Most importantly Tatau is/would be the perfect play mate for Natalia. Since Gambira’s passing their is a vacancy for another Female.
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Chester's trio of females, the half-sisters Sarikei and Leia with their mother old Martha, is a very good combination. So I think that both Tatau and Natalia should stay with their respective mothers, then they can learn from their mothers when they give birth again, although that can't happen at Colchester yet until Tiga or the females can be moved and paired up with suitable partners.
 
The Hedgehog said:
It sounds like the Gorillas currently at Paignton will be there for life. @Pertinax and at @Gigit (The Ape experts) do you think any further Gorillas will join the current troop.
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Straight answer- no. These males are now mature- adding any younger or strange ones would be next to impossible for them. As they are all from well represented backgrounds genetically, its unlikely (though never impossible) any of them would be selected to go elsewhere for breeding.
 
Pertinax said:
Straight answer- no. These males are now mature- adding any younger or strange ones would be next to impossible for them. As they are all from well represented backgrounds genetically, its unlikely (though never impossible) any of them would be selected to go elsewhere for breeding.
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@Pertinax this probably means there won’t be any changes in the Gorilla troop for at least 20 years. Who’s the Dominant Silverback now? I know it was originally Pertinax then Kiondo when Pertinax stepped down.
 
That is very possible. The days of different gorillas moving in and out at Paignton are long gone- these three silverbacks(and Pertinax seperately) with their over-represented backgrounds are very likely to stay just the way they are. I don't know anything of their group dynamics though.
 
gentle lemur said:
N'Dowe: he's the heaviest and probably the smartest too.
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@gentle lemur this is a shock. I was too at a keeper talk a few years ago that N’Dowe was the lowest ranking Male. At the time I was told that Kiondo was the leader. It’s kind of good that thease Males will remain at Paignton for years to come. They are all Brothers,well bonded,lovely personalities,attached to their keepers and a favourite of visitors. I’m surprised that none of the Males will ever be required for breeding. I would’ve thought one of the males could become the new Silverback at London Zoo.
 
The Hedgehog said:
I’m surprised that none of the Males will ever be required for breeding. I would’ve thought one of the males could become the new Silverback at London Zoo.
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As mentioned by @Pertinax, this is unlikely due to their representation.

The sire of the three younger males (Xebo) sired 25 offspring and was himself one of 19 offspring sired by his father (Ernst). Many of these infants survived and have had offspring of their own, comprising a large extended family across Europe.

You noted the brothers are well bonded and make for a cohesive bachelor troop. This isn’t always easy to achieve, so that in itself is a reason not to disrupt the troop dynamics. Male gorillas are hard enough to place as it is.
 
What does everyone else think of The Zoo tv series? I love it as it combines Animals and comedy. My favourite Character is Jurgan the Gorilla. @Pertinax isn’t Jurgan portrayed by Kiondo. I love Paignton Zoo. With all of the new species and refurbishments this year,Paignton Zoo will shine.
 
Hi @Gigit and @Pertinax do you think any further Female Orangutans will join Chinta,Natalia and Wousan? Across Europe there are many young Females approaching breeding age. In England alone there is Sprout at Dudley Zoo,Awan at Monkey World and Tatau at Colchester Zoo. I think these 3 Females are the perfect candidates for Paignton. The most likely of these too move too Paignton is Tatau. This is because she knows Paignton’s Orangutans and Keepers. Is a similar age and perfect playmate for half sister Natalia. Not only this but Tatau is under-stimulated and a waste to the Breeding Program while at Colchester.

If you think about it Paignton has space for 3 more Orangutans. In the last year Mali,Tatau and Gambira have all moved house or passed away. Speaking of Gambira do you know why she never had babies? I’m wondering if she was infertile or had problems due to being the result of inbreeding. I know that Gambira’s leg issues were a consequence of her dad being her brother.
 
The Hedgehog said:
I’m wondering if she was infertile or had problems due to being the result of inbreeding. I know that Gambira’s leg issues were a consequence of her dad being her brother.
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You seem to have a bit of a fixation on inbreeding of late :p quite a lot of your posts have including speculation on that topic!

To repeat what you were told at the time Gambira died - the leg issues which led to her death were the result of a severe fracture, not inbreeding. She *did* have slightly shorter than average legs, but this did not cause her any difficulties and had no bearing on the fracture.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
You seem to have a bit of a fixation on inbreeding of late :p quite a lot of your posts have including speculation on that topic!

To repeat what you were told at the time Gambira died - the leg issues which led to her death were the result of a severe fracture, not inbreeding. She *did* have slightly shorter than average legs, but this did not cause her any difficulties and had no bearing on the fracture.
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@TeaLovingDave whether or not Gambira died because of inbreeding,do you agree that Gambira’s short legs were a result of inbreeding?
 
The Hedgehog said:
do you agree that Gambira’s short legs were a result of inbreeding?
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There is literally no way to know whether or not she would have inherited the short legs from her mother had her father not been Nickel - bearing in mind the fact that Bulu was *not* inbred herself but nonetheless had shorter than average legs - so blanket statements and assumptions are unhelpful.

In other words - no, you can't say that for sure.
 
Gigit said:
He's going to Newquay. Originally I heard that was just temporary until arrangements can be made for him to go to a zoo with Asiatic lions but I don't know if that's still the case.
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@Gigit when I last visited Newquay Zoo 3 or 4 years ago,I was informed that the Lion enclosure was being extended. With Yali moving to Newquay,could this mean that Newquay are going to start to breed Asiatic Lions. @Gigit have you heard anything about the expansion of the Lion Enclosure or any plans for Newquay to hold Asiatic Lions.
 
@TeaLovingDave,@Gigit or @Pertinax do you think Paignton will welcome one of the young Female Orangutans I mention. In your opinion do Paignton have enough space to accommodate Sprout,Awan or Tatau? All 3 of these Females are in situations that won’t facilitate breeding. Sprout is housed with her Mum and an elderly Male,Awan is at Monkey World where Breeding is not allowed and Tatau is obviously at Colchester with her Second Cousin Tiga,who she is scared of.
 
The Hedgehog said:
@Gigit when I last visited Newquay Zoo 3 or 4 years ago,I was informed that the Lion enclosure was being extended. With Yali moving to Newquay,could this mean that Newquay are going to start to breed Asiatic Lions. @Gigit have you heard anything about the expansion of the Lion Enclosure or any plans for Newquay to hold Asiatic Lions.
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No idea.
 
The Hedgehog said:
@TeaLovingDave,@Gigit or @Pertinax do you think Paignton will welcome one of the young Female Orangutans I mention. In your opinion do Paignton have enough space to accommodate Sprout,Awan or Tatau? All 3 of these Females are in situations that won’t facilitate breeding. Sprout is housed with her Mum and an elderly Male,Awan is at Monkey World where Breeding is not allowed and Tatau is obviously at Colchester with her Second Cousin Tiga,who she is scared of.
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No I don't. They already have two potential breeding females. One of the various reasons I heard to explain Mali & Tat's move was lack of space.
Obviously I would be delighted if Tatty returned but it's not going to happen. Hopefully at some point she will move on to another zoo to breed. You are making too much of my comments about her at Colchester - I said she is wary of Tiga. She knows how to avoid him and is not living in fear. In addition, although I personally really dislike the outdoor enclosure and think it is unsuitable for orangs used to living like they did at Paignton, I am happy that the staff are keeping them stimulated with enrichment and training.
 
@Gigit I would have said that Chinta was too elderly to breed. For one if age isn’t a factor it would be risky for Chinta. Pregnancy puts a lot of strain on the body. Even Kera the Gorilla at Bristol Zoo almost died in pregnancy. She was less than half of Chinta’s age. I know Kera’s a different species too Chinta,but the risks still stand. In Orangutan years I would say Chinta is about 70. You don’t get any 70 year olds that have babies,the main reason is the body isn’t designed for it. I know Orangutans are not human but bodily wise we’re very similar. If I’m wrong @Gigit please correct me,
 
The Hedgehog said:
@Gigit I would have said that Chinta was too elderly to breed. For one if age isn’t a factor it would be risky for Chinta. Pregnancy puts a lot of strain on the body. Even Kera the Gorilla at Bristol Zoo almost died in pregnancy. She was less than half of Chinta’s age. I know Kera’s a different species too Chinta,but the risks still stand. In Orangutan years I would say Chinta is about 70. You don’t get any 70 year olds that have babies,the main reason is the body isn’t designed for it. I know Orangutans are not human but bodily wise we’re very similar. If I’m wrong @Gigit please correct me,
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Chinta is definitely not post reproductive... At just over 30 years old, she definitely still falls in the reproductive range of a female orangutan's lifespan. I'm not sure where you are reading that a 32-year old female orangutan is 70 in "orangutan years" as tons of females have given birth into their early 40s. Just because one female gorilla almost died in pregnancy doesn't mean all animals will... yes, all pregnancies have risks and put strains on the body but does that mean no animals should be allowed to fall pregnant?

I think it's quite likely that Wousan and Chinta will have an infant together soon so that Natalia can get a chance to watch her mother raise an infant which would help her in the long run when she becomes a mother herself.
 
IndianRhino said:
Chinta is definitely not post reproductive... At just over 30 years old, she definitely still falls in the reproductive range of a female orangutan's lifespan. I'm not sure where you are reading that a 32-year old female orangutan is 70 in "orangutan years" as tons of females have given birth into their early 40s. Just because one female gorilla almost died in pregnancy doesn't mean all animals will... yes, all pregnancies have risks and put strains on the body but does that mean no animals should be allowed to fall pregnant?

I think it's quite likely that Wousan and Chinta will have an infant together soon so that Natalia can get a chance to watch her mother raise an infant which would help her in the long run when she becomes a mother herself.
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@IndianRhino how old would you say Chinta is in human years? I thought Chinta was elderly as her Grandma Bulu whom she arrived at Paignton, from London with died at 47.Bulu was considered extremely elderly. Bulu was the eldest Orangutan in Captivity at the time of her death. Chinta is only 15 years off this age. As for Natalia I think she’ll have multiple babies with Wousan.
 
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