jay and/or glyn,
Can you guys get it down to specifics?
Melbourne
F Dakkoon Sire ?
F Kulab Sire ?
Taronga
F Porntip Sire ?
F Thong Dee Sire ?
fifth F? Sire ?
Thank you, please!
K.B.
Taronga Zoo Pak Boon Preggers
- Thread starter Coquinguy
- Start date
jay and/or glyn,
Can you guys get it down to specifics?
Melbourne
F Dakkoon Sire ?
F Kulab Sire ?
Taronga
F Porntip Sire ?
F Thong Dee Sire ?
fifth F? Sire ?
Thank you, please!
K.B.
yeh they did build the animal exhibits for the animals' well-being, but the import hit a lot of critisicm in its early stages as you would all be aware, as well unexpected hurdles such as Auckland pulling out of the original import and Taronga having to accomodate a bull elephant.
guess everything in that sense has been accomplished and i do wonder if even zoo officials in the early stages knew just how quickly and succesfully the elephants would fall pregnant....im sure they are very happy with themselves now.
i guess the next step is to find room for any calves or members of the 'founding' herd which will obviously need to go elsewhere within the next decade. luckily the age structure of the captive population as a whole, besides the Thai elephants is ageing and their subsequent passing will create space. it also needs to be remembered that Perth is currently running below capacity and Auckland Zoo wants to get on board.....their future plans will be enhanced by the success of the Australian breeding program. so im guessing that MZ and TZ bred elephants could ultimately end up in QLD, WA and NZ.
guess everything in that sense has been accomplished and i do wonder if even zoo officials in the early stages knew just how quickly and succesfully the elephants would fall pregnant....im sure they are very happy with themselves now.
i guess the next step is to find room for any calves or members of the 'founding' herd which will obviously need to go elsewhere within the next decade. luckily the age structure of the captive population as a whole, besides the Thai elephants is ageing and their subsequent passing will create space. it also needs to be remembered that Perth is currently running below capacity and Auckland Zoo wants to get on board.....their future plans will be enhanced by the success of the Australian breeding program. so im guessing that MZ and TZ bred elephants could ultimately end up in QLD, WA and NZ.
both melbourne females Bong Su.
**** Thip AI to Bong Su from Melbourne
Thong Dee and Pak Boon pregnant to Gung via natural mating.
Leaving only Namoi? and Thang Mo to get pregnant too.
5/8 is a pretty good result for a program deemed non-viable just a few years ago.
**** Thip AI to Bong Su from Melbourne
Thong Dee and Pak Boon pregnant to Gung via natural mating.
Leaving only Namoi? and Thang Mo to get pregnant too.
5/8 is a pretty good result for a program deemed non-viable just a few years ago.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
Australia zoo's three females are all over 50.
Perth zoo's pair Putra Mas and Permai have been trying for a long time , but no luck.
And although Bong su has impregnanted 3 cows. There is a possibliy that he has sired 4 due to Kulab carrying twins. ( can anyone confirm this?) on the cases of twins born in captivity most of the time one of them if not both will be a stillbirth. Of all the cases I can think of twins only one calf has survived usually the first one born.
???
Perth zoo's pair Putra Mas and Permai have been trying for a long time , but no luck.
And although Bong su has impregnanted 3 cows. There is a possibliy that he has sired 4 due to Kulab carrying twins. ( can anyone confirm this?) on the cases of twins born in captivity most of the time one of them if not both will be a stillbirth. Of all the cases I can think of twins only one calf has survived usually the first one born.
???
glyn,
Those deeming the programme unviable a few years back were heavily politicised non-experts, which figures .... ofcourse (LOL)!
If you do not like to look objectively to the evidence on offer, you are no good!!! And not everything that is written on paper is worth a look into ...... 
Anyways, I am so happy these so-called animal welfarist critics at home and in Thailand have been totally and utterly confounded by Bong Su and Gung doing the rounds!
But mathswise, you say 5/8 with 2 to go? Or is that minus 1 unviable or reproductively senescent? Elaborate please!
K.B.
Until the import of the 8 thai eles, it WAS undoubtly not viable, and if Gung had developed into a non-breeder, it wouldn`t look so bright now. With just 3 potentional breeding bulls in the region they surely took a risk, there is a lot of luck involved. I`d say it is a big disadvantage that Bong Su isn`t breeding naturally because calves sired by AI are almost always males. Just imagine Gung wouldn`t mate neither and 80% of all calves would be male..
Yassa,
I know were you stand, you know were I stand on elephants in general. If you would have interpreted my comments correctly, you would have picked up that I was referring to that particular time when elephants already being in Australia/New Zealand and a heavily politicised sit with the Thai ele import. All those so-called experts then referred to the ARAZPA plan as completely unviable, misconstrued, ill-designed and the Thais were pressurised into believing they be best left were they were then (in a country with a declining not well protected wild elephant population and a pretty stagnant captive population with some captive-breeding but not the main focus + most of these sanctuary initiatives heavily leaning on outside tourism for financial support to keep them going ... Now, think the current socio-economic and the spirraling decline in Thailand and elephants are of course well off then!!)
Thank you,
K.B.
I know were you stand, you know were I stand on elephants in general. If you would have interpreted my comments correctly, you would have picked up that I was referring to that particular time when elephants already being in Australia/New Zealand and a heavily politicised sit with the Thai ele import. All those so-called experts then referred to the ARAZPA plan as completely unviable, misconstrued, ill-designed and the Thais were pressurised into believing they be best left were they were then (in a country with a declining not well protected wild elephant population and a pretty stagnant captive population with some captive-breeding but not the main focus + most of these sanctuary initiatives heavily leaning on outside tourism for financial support to keep them going ... Now, think the current socio-economic and the spirraling decline in Thailand and elephants are of course well off then!!)
Thank you,
K.B.
Sorry, that was a misunderstanding, I thought you referred to the time before the import. I still think they left an awful lot to chance with importing just one bull (and one who is a lot younger then the females), but at the moment, it looks it pays off. I won`t become a fan of the programs of Melbourne and Taronga, though.
Cheers, Yassa.
Cheers, Yassa.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
Hey Mark,
I think that everyone has some credit to the give to Melbourne and Taronga on some level, for living up to the purpose of bringing elephants over. ( correct me if I'm wrong)
I think the reason for myself and some other members is that they don't have the proper facilities to care for calves in the future.
hmmm how do I put this. I guess you could say it's like your going to have a male child. But there aren't any suitable high schools that he can go to, that's anywhere nearby. ???
I think that everyone has some credit to the give to Melbourne and Taronga on some level, for living up to the purpose of bringing elephants over. ( correct me if I'm wrong)
I think the reason for myself and some other members is that they don't have the proper facilities to care for calves in the future.
hmmm how do I put this. I guess you could say it's like your going to have a male child. But there aren't any suitable high schools that he can go to, that's anywhere nearby. ???
it wont be that hard to modify the exhibits to care for calves in the short-term, Taronga's exhibit water features can even have their levels lowered or raised so they arent to deep for a young calf.
long-term i would like to see both MZ and TZ expand their exhibits into under-utilised adjacent parcels of land-in Tarongas' case the strip of land which runs along from the Kodiaks to the PNG aviary and extending out into the road and in MZ i would lose the giraffes (sending them to WORZ) and expanding the elephant area right down to where bongo currently are (perhaps even incorporating Asian Rhino and Tapir (in a nocturnal exhibit in the old giraffe barn)).
as I have said elsewhere Taronga now has a facility to accomodate at least one more adult bull elephant-of course Perth Zoo could immediately accomodate another cow and through attrition within ten years could be looking to hold several more as Trish ages and ultimately passes on.
Australia Zoo holds three ageing animals-you dont build a multi-million dollar exhibit with the expectation that it will be a 'white elephant' once its occupants die out. and once again, Auckland Zoo wants a whole herd with room for several bulls.
until the risks and triggers of EHV are fully explored and understood I would never argue for any of the Thai elephants or their offspring to be reolcated there...at least not whilst the Africans are there or the three old Asian cows, who, we could never quite rule out as carriers for now. in the future though what we have is a large, very new facility at Dubbo with space for many, many elephants. bulls? a breeding herd? thats a long way down the track.
from time to time this argument of not having space for elephants seems to crop up-i think its needless panic. we have a viable, well-run ASMP which becomes more promising year by year (pregnancies-TZ and MZ, exhibit expansions-Perth Zoo or project approvals-Auckland Zoo). and, at the end of the day....were looking at a species with a 22 month gestation and extended period of parental dependency.
plenty of time to get ready and make room.
and as I have said before, bachelor gorillas create problems with overcrowding but we still not only breed them (duh) but routinely send them around the world. because zoos still need male gorillas, and though it might be easier to jet a gorilla than an elephant around the world there will still be a demand, albeit a lesser one, for bull elephants in programs in other regions of the world.
long-term i would like to see both MZ and TZ expand their exhibits into under-utilised adjacent parcels of land-in Tarongas' case the strip of land which runs along from the Kodiaks to the PNG aviary and extending out into the road and in MZ i would lose the giraffes (sending them to WORZ) and expanding the elephant area right down to where bongo currently are (perhaps even incorporating Asian Rhino and Tapir (in a nocturnal exhibit in the old giraffe barn)).
as I have said elsewhere Taronga now has a facility to accomodate at least one more adult bull elephant-of course Perth Zoo could immediately accomodate another cow and through attrition within ten years could be looking to hold several more as Trish ages and ultimately passes on.
Australia Zoo holds three ageing animals-you dont build a multi-million dollar exhibit with the expectation that it will be a 'white elephant' once its occupants die out. and once again, Auckland Zoo wants a whole herd with room for several bulls.
until the risks and triggers of EHV are fully explored and understood I would never argue for any of the Thai elephants or their offspring to be reolcated there...at least not whilst the Africans are there or the three old Asian cows, who, we could never quite rule out as carriers for now. in the future though what we have is a large, very new facility at Dubbo with space for many, many elephants. bulls? a breeding herd? thats a long way down the track.
from time to time this argument of not having space for elephants seems to crop up-i think its needless panic. we have a viable, well-run ASMP which becomes more promising year by year (pregnancies-TZ and MZ, exhibit expansions-Perth Zoo or project approvals-Auckland Zoo). and, at the end of the day....were looking at a species with a 22 month gestation and extended period of parental dependency.
plenty of time to get ready and make room.
and as I have said before, bachelor gorillas create problems with overcrowding but we still not only breed them (duh) but routinely send them around the world. because zoos still need male gorillas, and though it might be easier to jet a gorilla than an elephant around the world there will still be a demand, albeit a lesser one, for bull elephants in programs in other regions of the world.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
I read on another forum it is possible at the moment in asutralia zoo they are trying to start a breeding program. Is this true? After the contreversy of the last elephants that came over I'm sure it's not gonna happen anytime soon.
i am not 100% sure about were they currently stand on this but Australia Zoo did put its hand up for eles in the future a long time ago now....though their development plans have slowed somewhat and I would guess so too has the cashflow (another Thai import within the next few years may just be beyond them).
However, in saying that a number of things have come out of the 2006 import, including the fact that zoos can keep elephants 'happy', that they do breed in zoos and that no matter how many self-appointed elephant experts, including actors you have condemning a project that sometimes those in power still greenlight things. no doubt, other zoos wishing to import would learn a lot from the last one, but the relationships (both diplomatic and professional) which were forged during the last process would no doubt come in handy.
as Auckland Zoo wants elephants too, and possibly soon you may see both zoos combining together. I shouldnt think too many would need to come in, just a few females for each zoo would probably do. leave the excess space for up and coming bulls, or, if all else fails transfer across some of the original Thai elephants with offspring to augment the elder herds at both zoos (NZ and QLD).
However, in saying that a number of things have come out of the 2006 import, including the fact that zoos can keep elephants 'happy', that they do breed in zoos and that no matter how many self-appointed elephant experts, including actors you have condemning a project that sometimes those in power still greenlight things. no doubt, other zoos wishing to import would learn a lot from the last one, but the relationships (both diplomatic and professional) which were forged during the last process would no doubt come in handy.
as Auckland Zoo wants elephants too, and possibly soon you may see both zoos combining together. I shouldnt think too many would need to come in, just a few females for each zoo would probably do. leave the excess space for up and coming bulls, or, if all else fails transfer across some of the original Thai elephants with offspring to augment the elder herds at both zoos (NZ and QLD).
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
good point there, auckland and asutralia can easily act as a secondary home for the future calves when they grow older.
yep....that'd be the point of the ASMP.
KB, sorry i just read your post at the top of the page. and your correct, i should have said five out of 7 cows pregnant. though i guess if you include Perth's female too it could be five out of 8 lol.
potentially, this program has 11 founders....if taken to include Bong Su, the 8 Thai elephants and Perth's two. and as it stands, seven animals have chicked their genes into the program already. not a bad start.
KB, sorry i just read your post at the top of the page. and your correct, i should have said five out of 7 cows pregnant. though i guess if you include Perth's female too it could be five out of 8 lol.
potentially, this program has 11 founders....if taken to include Bong Su, the 8 Thai elephants and Perth's two. and as it stands, seven animals have chicked their genes into the program already. not a bad start.
dragon(ele)nerd
Well-Known Member
2009-2010, years of the elephants. !