Edinburgh Zoo Pandamonium to hit Edinburgh! #1

"The impending arrival of giant pandas Tian Tian and Yangguang has given bosses a headache in sourcing the 30kg of bamboo which the pair will munch through every day."

I can think of another UK zoo that now has bamboo growing everywhere. I'd be more than happy to donate all of it to Edinburgh.

It's an interesting situation though and tends to indicate that the decision to get the pandas was made quite quickly. Many bamboo species are incredibly fast-growing and I'm sure Edinburgh could've planted their own (it almost makes me question whether this is a publicity stunt). One wonders what species local residents grown in their gardens and whether pandas eat any type of bamboo, even those native to the other side of the world?
 
SMR said:
Only those who have never seen a giant panda could really equate their behaviour to big cats, the two are quite different.
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Completely taken out of context! I was in no way comparing the behavior of a big cat to a panda! Come on now! I was simply saying that big cats are pretty inactive so an inactive animal is not necessarily a bad exhibit!
 
Vulpes said:
Completely taken out of context! I was in no way comparing the behavior of a big cat to a panda!
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Apologies for misunderstanding, but how was that comment out of context in a thread about giant pandas when the discussion had moved to how inactive they tend to be? Nobody had mentioned big cats up until the point you said that they could be inactive too, which did seem to be a direct comparison.
 
The renovations for the former gorilla house has been budgeted at around £200'000 and work will begin in February, therefore meaning that the arrival date of the pandas could be brought forward.
The moats surrounding the outdoor enclosures will be filled in, extending the area for the pandas and the enclosures will include mature trees , in their words to "recreate a forest".

Pandas to arrive early if zoo has bear necessities - Scotsman.com News
 
SMR said:
"The impending arrival of giant pandas Tian Tian and Yangguang has given bosses a headache in sourcing the 30kg of bamboo which the pair will munch through every day."

I can think of another UK zoo that now has bamboo growing everywhere. I'd be more than happy to donate all of it to Edinburgh.

It's an interesting situation though and tends to indicate that the decision to get the pandas was made quite quickly. Many bamboo species are incredibly fast-growing and I'm sure Edinburgh could've planted their own (it almost makes me question whether this is a publicity stunt). One wonders what species local residents grown in their gardens and whether pandas eat any type of bamboo, even those native to the other side of the world?
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While bamboo grows quickly, establishing a bamboo plantation sufficient to feed two adults would require some serious space and time and money.

Pandas do have preferences, and some of them are individual. So how well the local gardens will be able to provide sufficient browse is a question.

Shipping bamboo, even within the UK can get expensive as well

The article quoted in reply https://www.zoochat.com/community/posts/407254 lays out the issue pretty well, I thought
 
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Edinburgh Zoo unable to raise sponsorship for new pandas - Herald Scotland | News | Home News
When news of their arrival was confirmed earlier this month, it was hailed as a diplomatic and scientific coup that would prove a massive money-spinner for Edinburgh Zoo.

But as plans are drawn up to accommodate giant pandas Tian Tian and Yangguang, disquiet is growing among conservation groups and questions are being asked about who is going to foot the estimated £6 million bill for their loan.

It emerged at the weekend that despite hopes of attracting a high-profile backer, no commercial sponsors are yet in place for the pandas, while Will Travers, chief executive officer of the Born Free Foundation, claimed the plan amounted to “animal exploitation”.

He said: “I am convinced Scotland does not need pandas any more than pandas need Scotland. It appears commercial sponsors, quite rightly, have other priorities and may share our view this whole thing is little more than animal exploitation.”

Edinburgh Zoo insisted yesterday that the breeding pair of giant pandas, which will arrive here from China in the autumn, will be a viable draw and that the species will benefit from research done here.

The zoo says it has already met informally with potential sponsors and that a robust business plan took account of the forecast increase in visitor numbers once the pandas arrived.

Visitor numbers to Adelaide Zoo in Australia jumped by 70% thanks to giant pandas, although Edinburgh’s forecast is not of a similar scale.

Zoo officials signed a deal in London 14 days ago to bring Tian Tian and Yangguang to Edinburgh as part of a breeding programme to safeguard the endangered animal, of which only 1500 exist in the wild in China. The pandas will be the first to live in the UK for 17 years.

The deal – championed by First Minister Alex Salmond, below, and Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg – is hoped to repeat the success of Ted Heath’s pandas, which were loaned to London Zoo in the early 1970s to popular acclaim and long queues.

But Mr Travers called on the Chinese Government to abandon its panda-loan project and instead increase domestic efforts to secure the animals’ future in their natural habitat.

The campaigning organisation, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals Foundation (PETA), added: “The consensus of animal behaviourists is that wide-roaming animals, including bears like the two pandas marked for lifetime confinement in Edinburgh Zoo, suffer often severe physical and mental anguish in captivity.

“Their natural instincts to roam, choose a mate and to live a real life in which they make their own choices, are all denied to them, which leads to stress – a factor in their failure to breed. Pandas are complex, sensitive, intelligent beings who suffer boredom, frustration and loneliness in captivity and deserve to be left in peace.”

But Gary Wilson, Edinburgh Zoo’s chief operating officer, said: “The best chance of survival of this very special species is to have in place a carefully-managed captive breeding programme while at the same time working with pandas in the wild and on the protection of their environment.

“The Royal Zoological Society of Scotland (RZSS) is a world leader in animal conservation and can offer expertise in animal nutrition, genetics, embryology, immunology and veterinary medicine, all vital areas of research for giant pandas.

“This is a valuable partnership that will share expertise and could lead to the reintroduction of pandas into the wild in the next 10 years.

“It is a rare and very special honour to be given permission to care for Giant Pandas. The RZSS has been working closely with the Chinese Wildlife Conservation Association (CWCA) and liaising with the Chinese Government for more than five years to secure this agreement. Only seven other countries in the world have been granted this opportunity.”

The zoo pointed out payments included within the loan agreement go to the CWCA, not the Chinese Government, and will support the conservation research that required to secure the future of the species. Mr Wilson said there was no question of the taxpayer footing the bill.
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I know the Scot's aren't renowned for planning things through - Scottish blood in the family. However, surely the Chinese Government would have wanted proof of funding etc before they agreed to the deal?

As for the Born Free Trust - wasn't that started by a woman who treated animals like humans, then exploited them for the rest of her life?
 
“Their natural instincts to roam, choose a mate and to live a real life in which they make their own choices, are all denied to them, which leads to stress – a factor in their failure to breed. Pandas are complex, sensitive, intelligent beings who suffer boredom, frustration and loneliness in captivity and deserve to be left in peace.”
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It is amazing how someone who claims to be knowledgeable about wildlife can make such a statement as if the Giant Panda's habitat were vast, protected and safe. Does he really believe that wild pandas live the Libertarian dream?

And having seen enough Giant Pandas, I cannot imagine how one tells if they are bored. A sleeping animal is a sleeping animal. An animal munching on bamboo is an animal munching on bamboo. And that about covers the activities of the Giant Panda.
 
SMR said:
" One wonders what species local residents grown in their gardens and whether pandas eat any type of bamboo, even those native to the other side of the world?
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Isn't all Bamboo which grows in the UK non-native? I thought all the varieties originate from China/South East Asia anyway. Most photos I've see of Pandas feeding they appear to be munching on Arrow Bamboo- the tall growing big-leafed species which grows semi-wild in some places in the UK nowadays (it particularly likes damp conditions) but I suspect they'll eat most varieties.
 
Pertinax said:
Isn't all Bamboo which grows in the UK non-native? I thought all the varieties originate from China/South East Asia anyway. Most photos I've see of Pandas feeding they appear to be munching on Arrow Bamboo- the tall growing big-leafed species which grows semi-wild in some places in the UK nowadays (it particularly likes damp conditions) but I suspect they'll eat most varieties.
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There are North American species (not many) and South American.
And yes, Arrow Bamboo is one they eat in China
 
Does anywhere else ever do the swapping in & out of twin babies that they show on the programmes about the Chinese breeding place?
 
Edinburgh Zoo

This is only a half serious remark, but.......what about saving all that money, and putting a pair of almost any Chinese pheasant in a nicely landscaped bamboo forest exhibit? A lot cheaper, more active, but perhaps not the instant crowd-puller. It would be nice to see the same effort made to source shall we say, Chinese Monals.
 
While I agree that China has some lovely native pheasants, you couldn't equate even a pheasantryfull of birds with a pair of pandas. Moreover I don't think I could endure the Chester tragopan saga repeated with a pair of monals in Edinburgh.
On the other hand, Rhinopithecus might thrive in the Scottish climate. I don't think they would care for haggis - but neeps and 'taties could go down well with them (it is Burns night after all :D)

Alan
 
Scottish zoo warned pandas are no money-spinners - The Daily Record
30 Jan 2011

ZOO bosses in Scotland have been warned the arrival of two Chinese pandas will be no money-spinner.

Edinburgh Zoo have agreed to rent bears Tian Tian and Yangguang from the Chinese for 10 years in a £6million deal.

Last week, bosses admitted corporate sponsors had still to come on board but said a huge increase in visitor numbers could help fund the deal. Taxpayers' support has already been ruled out.

A spokesman said: "We hope there will be private sponsorship and anticipate a significant uplift in zoo visitor numbers as a result of the pandas being here.

"In fact, zoos around the world have experienced a rise of around 70 per cent in visitor numbers."

But yesterday an American zoo who have pandas denied the bears had increased gate money.

Christina Simmons, of San Diego Zoo, said: "We are not aware of any revenue coming in associated with our pandas. It is a common misconception about keeping pandas.

"The San Diego Zoo has not seen any increase in attendance related to the giant panda programme which began in 1996 and continues.

"We have spent millions of dollars on our panda conservation effort. We are dedicated to conserving endangered species. The ideal model for our conservation programmes is a situation where we have some animals in a zoological setting to learn about them, while supporting research and conservation in the wild."

The San Diego pandas became the world's most famous after cub Su Lin was born five years ago.

If Edinburgh's pair have cubs, the annual fees will rise and the offspring will be returned to China.

Edinburgh Zoo bosses hoped to use public cash to foot the panda bill but the move was vetoed by the government. Suggestions that Royal Bank of Scotland would underwrite the deal have also been denied.

Ms Simmons added: "We are delighted that another zoo is becoming involved with pandas and look forward to collaborating with Edinburgh Zoo."

In the US, zoos considered sending their pandas back to China after the costs of keeping them soared.

Atlanta Zoo was reportedly paying £1.25million a year to rent a pair of giant pandas.

Chief executive Dennis Kelly said: "If we can't renegotiate, they will absolutely go back."

Chuck Brady, of Memphis Zoo, said: "Year three is your break-even year. After that, attendance drops off and you start losing vast amounts of money. There is a resurgence in visitors when babies are born."

Only three other zoos in Europe - Madrid, Vienna and Berlin - have pandas and there are fewer than 2000 of them living in the wild.
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You could argue that San Diego's situation is different from Edinburgh:
1) San Diego is much more susbtantial as a collection (the impact of Panda's on the zoo as whole is questionable)
2) Panda's are more easily seen in America than the Uk, surrely it is a much biggger deal forEedinburgh to get panda's than another american zoo?
3) Edinburgh is less financially secure than massive San Diego and the immediate monetary gains could be quickly reinvested into expanding exhibits and make a bigger impact, relatively speaking
 
"Ms Simmons added: "We are delighted that another zoo is becoming involved with pandas and look forward to collaborating with Edinburgh Zoo."

The another zoo; anyone knows which zoo?
 
Yes, it's Edinburgh. Ms Simmons is from San Diego zoo and is delighted Edinburgh is becoming involved with the pandas. That's how I read it anyway.
 
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