Peter Dickinson
Well-Known Member
Paws are pretty angry with the AZA and especially with regards to the Toronto Zoo elephants. PAWS have written an open letter to the AZA.
PAWS letter to the AZA
- Thread starter Peter Dickinson
- Start date
-
- Tags
- elephant sanctuary toronto zoo
I will say one thing for PAWS' Pat Derby, she certainly has a wide vocabulary. There were at least two words in the article I have never heard before (and I consider myself to be fairly articulate).
It seems as if she (or he - with a generic name like Pat I am not sure of the gender) was trying to be overly intellectual and lengthy in an effort to counteract the accusation that sanctuary workers are not professionals. I do not know the person, so maybe that is how she or he always talks (or at least always writes). It just seems unnecessarily lengthy and I think a letter that is more to the point would be more effective.
It seems as if she (or he - with a generic name like Pat I am not sure of the gender) was trying to be overly intellectual and lengthy in an effort to counteract the accusation that sanctuary workers are not professionals. I do not know the person, so maybe that is how she or he always talks (or at least always writes). It just seems unnecessarily lengthy and I think a letter that is more to the point would be more effective.
I've seen Pat (it is a she) interviewed on video a few times. I would describe her as a bit rough around the edges. I seriously doubt she wrote this screed.
Meaghan Edwards
Well-Known Member
Toronto Zoo does have renovations that need to be done (and there are definate plans on doing that), but wayyyy far from absolutely awful, I wouldn't buy a membership for an atrocious facility. They also do wonderful work in the conservation field, especially with regards to little known species or species most people overlook, such as our native frogs, turtles, etc.
Sadly can't same thing for a number of other Ontario zoos which are indeed absolutely awful. The keepers at Toronto look after their animals far better than a good chunk of the pet owner population here.
Sadly can't same thing for a number of other Ontario zoos which are indeed absolutely awful. The keepers at Toronto look after their animals far better than a good chunk of the pet owner population here.
I have been at the Toronto Zoo many times and I would say it is a decent facility for the elephants that live there. However, they are not staying there and having been at PAWS two times, the life of these elephants are being upgraded. They will be staying together (not like the attocity that is going on at the Reid Park Zoo in Arizona) and they will have an outside "yard" that is currently 75 acres, and growing, along with fine and adequate inside quarters. There is a really good caring staff, including full time vet, to meet their needs. We, who love elephants, have to stop making them the victims of the politics between zoos and sanctuaries. They both have their good and, unfortunately, bad points. The needs, both emotionally and physically of the elephants should be what comes first. I have seen some good zoo programs for elephants but I have seen PAWS too and it is excellent.
700stories
New Member
I have to say I agree with Pat.
I, too, agree with Pat Derby. The AZA seems to be an organization that is much more into control than it is to do what is right and what is kind for elephants. The AZA and SSP have caused some of the greatest pain to elephants with moving them around like chess pieces without any regard to their feelings. This is especially true with what they have recommended and sanctioned for baby elephants being taken from their mothers. This is an unconscionable cruelty and yet look at the breeding programs of so many zoos and the circus breeding program as well. Look at what just went on in Portland and what was going to happen to Rose-tu's baby until the public was made aware of the cruelty of the zoo's breeding program. Thankfully, that baby will not be torn from her mother's side like so many before her. Check the breeding history of that zoo and it will make you sick, if you have a heart and feelings for these animals. This was all done under AZA approval. Elephants are family animals and the AZA needs to care about the elephants rather than their own political agenda. The elephant sanctuaries, PAWS and Tennessee, have done some wonderful things in rescuing elephants that had been heinously abused. Often they end up having to deal with and treat elephants that were sick that had come from places that I did not see the AZA condemn, but I have seen them condemn the sanctuaries for having to clean up the mess that other places had caused. There are many good programs in certain zoos too, but the best interests of elephants should come before politics.
I want specifics of particular instances where the AZA recommended the transfer of calves from their mothers.
Also, whether or not the Portland public became aware of the breeding loan agreement of the Oregon Zoo and HTWT, the calf would have remained at the Portland zoo. As the zoo has repeated its desire to create matriarchal herds numerous times. You don't do that by sending away a female calf.
Instances of calves being separated from their mothers were not AZA sanctioned. Rather monetary compensation on an individual zoo basis with no intent of furthering the species in North America. Yes, Oregon was a main contributor to the problem in the 60's to 80's. The most recent happened with the dealing between the Dickerson park zoo and OKC with Asha and Chandra (at the age of 3 & 2).
Elephant management has evolved over the course of he last two decades, and the AZA's control is to prevent monetary compensation from being a driving force in transfers, but rather the desire to further the species. I can not think of any cows and female calves being separated with in the last 15 years... I feel like male calves may be separated at an earlier age than necessary, but that is really on an individual basis as Bhodi at the Columbus zoo went into his first musth at two (!!!)
You seemed to be confused about how the AZA and its species survival programs work. The AZA elephant SSPs haven't had any real "control" previous to the past 10 years or so. And you seem to place a blanketed blame on an organization that isn't quite responsible for the actions of individual zoos. It would be similar to collectively call a family criminals because one member committed a crime.
Portland has been breeding elephants since the 1960s. And they proceeded to manage their elephants like any other species at that time without regard to social structure - a philosophy in zoos that has since changed many years ago. You are suggesting all this was done under AZA approval, years before an elephant SSP was created. How is it possible that the AZA approved the early separation of mother and calf elephants when the Asian elephant SSP wasn't established until 1985? Especially since the last time Portland separated a mother and calf at an early age was in 1982 with Sabu and his mother Hanako.
And I still don't understand why people still believe that the zoo in Portland was going to ship their newest calf to a private facility in California. Ownership doesn't necessarily equal possession. The breeding loan of Tusko is one of the simplest of standard breeding loans that you can find amongst animal facilities. Breeding loans can become very complex and down right confusing at times. I guarantee that a large number of the animals born in the Oregon Zoo are not owned by them, and those animals are not immediately shipped out as well. An elephant mother and young daughter have not been separated from each other in a US zoo since 1998 (Dickerson Park Zoo). It doesn't make much sense for zoos to start the practice up again so quickly.
I do believe that history is important and it can influence decisions. But its also important to realize that management comes and goes in zoos - people that make decisions in zoos today aren't necessarily the same ones that made decisions 10 years ago. Philosophies evolve, generations change, and zoos along with them.
cruelty in some zoos, AZA etc
The last calf taken from his mother in Portland was Chang Dee (renamed Prince) he was taken away from Metu, who (according to more than one keeper) was the mother who banged her head against the wall, screaming when they dragged a calf from her. Prince was born in 1987 and taken in 1988 to fulfill an agreement with the Ringling Circus. If the AZA did not sanction this, then they did not speak out against the cruelty either. At this point the Portland Zoo has made arrangements to buy Lily and, I believe, Tusko and that is a good thing, I hope, for the elephants. If the zoo is, indeed, going to build a matriarchal herd, which would be the right way to go if you are going to breed elephants in captivity, then that makes them much better than they had been in the past. I seriously doubt, and with very good reason, that Lily would have have stayed with her mother without public outrage upon learning of the agreement with HTWT. Portland Zoo, Dickerson Park Zoo and others have a very dark history when it comes to the treatment of their elephants. My apprehension on trusting the AZA comes from the lack of compassion in their decisions toward the elephants and other animals as well. The AZA wanted to separate the two elephants in the Reid Park Zoo after they had been together for about 30 years and were a family to each other. This was because they did not fit their new programs of Asians and Africans not being kept together in new facilties. There was no concern for the emotional well being of these two elephants in their decision. Here is another example of public outrage at the cruel treatment of animals altering a zoo's actions. I just read that the AZA is sanctioning the capture of wild beluga whales for the Georgia Aquarium, in this day and age to capture a wild marine mammal for an aquarium is an unconscionable act, we know better. Rationalize it any way you want, but the feelings of the individual animal needs to be considered and considered very strongly. I do not have faith in any organization that makes rules and regulations more important than the animals it is supposed to represent and help. I was a school teacher for many years and I always felt that the children were more important than the rules; I feel the same way about animals.
The last calf taken from his mother in Portland was Chang Dee (renamed Prince) he was taken away from Metu, who (according to more than one keeper) was the mother who banged her head against the wall, screaming when they dragged a calf from her. Prince was born in 1987 and taken in 1988 to fulfill an agreement with the Ringling Circus. If the AZA did not sanction this, then they did not speak out against the cruelty either. At this point the Portland Zoo has made arrangements to buy Lily and, I believe, Tusko and that is a good thing, I hope, for the elephants. If the zoo is, indeed, going to build a matriarchal herd, which would be the right way to go if you are going to breed elephants in captivity, then that makes them much better than they had been in the past. I seriously doubt, and with very good reason, that Lily would have have stayed with her mother without public outrage upon learning of the agreement with HTWT. Portland Zoo, Dickerson Park Zoo and others have a very dark history when it comes to the treatment of their elephants. My apprehension on trusting the AZA comes from the lack of compassion in their decisions toward the elephants and other animals as well. The AZA wanted to separate the two elephants in the Reid Park Zoo after they had been together for about 30 years and were a family to each other. This was because they did not fit their new programs of Asians and Africans not being kept together in new facilties. There was no concern for the emotional well being of these two elephants in their decision. Here is another example of public outrage at the cruel treatment of animals altering a zoo's actions. I just read that the AZA is sanctioning the capture of wild beluga whales for the Georgia Aquarium, in this day and age to capture a wild marine mammal for an aquarium is an unconscionable act, we know better. Rationalize it any way you want, but the feelings of the individual animal needs to be considered and considered very strongly. I do not have faith in any organization that makes rules and regulations more important than the animals it is supposed to represent and help. I was a school teacher for many years and I always felt that the children were more important than the rules; I feel the same way about animals.
the TAGs (taxon advisory groups) are responsible for the SSPs, not the AZA.... And SSPs were not even founded when elephant calves were being separated from their mothers.
Also, you are incorrect. Portland would NOT have sent Lily to HTWT. It's redundant now considering that the zoo bought Lily and Tusko, but the Oregon zoo is trying to create a multi generational herd and their elephant manager is on the board of the elephant TAG as a breeding program coordinator. As the director Mrs. smith has reiterated..... It was never an issue.
Also, you are incorrect. Portland would NOT have sent Lily to HTWT. It's redundant now considering that the zoo bought Lily and Tusko, but the Oregon zoo is trying to create a multi generational herd and their elephant manager is on the board of the elephant TAG as a breeding program coordinator. As the director Mrs. smith has reiterated..... It was never an issue.
Just let's hope that Portland and every other zoo considers the feelings of its elephants in every decision they make from now on. Allowing herds to grow where babies are not taken from their mothers is a good beginning. The calf seems safe now so the rest is not worth talking about.