Perth Zoo Perth Zoo orangutans

tetrapod said:
This was not previously a decision that could be made by PZ. It came under the realm of the studbook keeper. I can see some point that swamping the Australasian region with PZ-bred orangs would make it difficult to maintain a wide genetic base. Also bear in mind that all current PZ orangs are offspring of the original Puan/Atjeh pairing, with the additional genetics of Hsing and Dinar. It would have helped if the orangs at Melbourne and Adelaide (prior to Karta's death) have contributed more to a balance in the Australian population.
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How well is the species being managed in the region? That is the question
 
Zorro said:
How well is the species being managed in the region? That is the question
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That I cannot answer! Obviously new blood as come into the region, and while PZ as resumed breeding easily, the situation is different with the others. Adelaide cannot seem to get going, Melbourne has bred a few (numbers?) and Taronga has moved away from the Borneans/hybrids but no longer has an enclosure. I would suggest part of the problem is not enough zoos agreeing to take the species on, whish is understandable as great apes take up a lot of resources.
 
tetrapod said:
That I cannot answer! Obviously new blood as come into the region, and while PZ as resumed breeding easily, the situation is different with the others. Adelaide cannot seem to get going, Melbourne has bred a few (numbers?) and Taronga has moved away from the Borneans/hybrids but no longer has an enclosure. I would suggest part of the problem is not enough zoos agreeing to take the species on, whish is understandable as great apes take up a lot of resources.
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It seems to me (looking at it as an outsider from UK) that the most important animal to breed from is male Kluet(ex Jersey,) at Adelaide, as he still isn't represented in the region. Either a new breeding female needs to be sourced for him or failing that perhaps an exchange of males so he could breed with a female(s) at either Perth or Melbourne.
 
Pertinax said:
It seems to me (looking at it as an outsider from UK) that the most important animal to breed from is male Kluet(ex Jersey,) at Adelaide, as he still isn't represented in the region. Either a new breeding female needs to be sourced for him or failing that perhaps an exchange of males so he could breed with a female(s) at either Perth or Melbourne.
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The orang situation in the region should probably be viewed like the gorillas as part of a more global studbook (and yes I'm aware that gorillas are managed as Euro/Australasian and American studbooks!). Kluet is part of the Jersey dynasty and is surely well represented genetically. This doesn't preclude him potentially being a good successful dad within the Aust region. I'm not sure which US zoo Dinar is from but he may be more valuable with only one offspring (and being a male he is a good canditate for Sumatra release). I do know the Perth keepers are pretty happy with him so it's not likely for Dinar to be moved on soon! Not sure about the origins of Melbourne pair either (two offspring?). As mentioned above with only three zoos in the region with Sumatrans (which will increase in the future) we are not talking about a huge capacity for keeping orangs.
 
tetrapod said:
The orang situation in the region should probably be viewed like the gorillas as part of a more global studbook (and yes I'm aware that gorillas are managed as Euro/Australasian and American studbooks!). Kluet is part of the Jersey dynasty and is surely well represented genetically. This doesn't preclude him potentially being a good successful dad within the Aust region. I'm not sure which US zoo Dinar is from but he may be more valuable with only one offspring (and being a male he is a good canditate for Sumatra release). I do know the Perth keepers are pretty happy with him so it's not likely for Dinar to be moved on soon! Not sure about the origins of Melbourne pair either (two offspring?). As mentioned above with only three zoos in the region with Sumatrans (which will increase in the future) we are not talking about a huge capacity for keeping orangs.
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I think Dinar at Perth came from Canada, as did Santan(?) at Melbourne. I think it may even be from the same Zoo but I looked them up once and they are unrelated, coming from different sets of parents.

Regarding Kluet, obviously he is from quite a well-represented line in Europe but he was sent to Australia hopefully as a breeding prospect and he seems the only Orangutan that isn't represented in his adopted region. So unless more new and completely unrelated animals are imported, his input to the current population seems valuable to me.
 
Pertinax said:
I think Dinar at Perth came from Canada, as did Santan(?) at Melbourne. I think it may even be from the same Zoo but I looked them up once and they are unrelated, coming from different sets of parents.

Regarding Kluet, obviously he is from quite a well-represented line in Europe but he was sent to Australia hopefully as a breeding prospect and he seems the only Orangutan that isn't represented in his adopted region. So unless more new and completely unrelated animals are imported, his input to the current population seems valuable to me.
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Santan and Dinar both came from Toronto Zoo. Santan (born 1977) arrived at Melbourne Zoo in 1987; Dinar (born 1987) arrived at Perth Zoo in 2004. As you mention, they have different parents (all wild born) so are of no relation together.

Kluet has relations in the region. Kluet (born 1995) has an old sister (full sibling), who gave birth to Maimunah in 1986. This means Maimunah (currently at Melbourne Zoo) and her two offspring, Malu (born 2003) and Dewi (born 2010) are Kluet's niece and great nephew/great niece.

I believe Perth Zoo are still content with their breeding of the first generation to Hsing Hsing and the second generation to Dinar, so with viable breeding options, have little need to import a new male.
In my opinion, they would be best to export one of their three branches (ideally Pulang's as hers is playing 'catch up' with the other two) and focus on Puteri and Puspa's branches, by breeding their respective daughters, Sekara and Teliti with Dinar.

Pulang (born 1993) and Lestari (born 2009) could be sent to Adelaide Zoo to breed with Kluet, or Kluet, Pulang and Lestari could found a new colony at either Auckland Zoo or Orana Wildlife Park. Adelaide could then return Puspa to Perth (would Sekara tolerate her?) and import Santan and Malu from Melbourne. This would leave Melbourne open to import a new male to breed with their mother/daughter pair Maimunah and Dewi. Maybe Sungai (born 2011) at Perth Zoo would be suitable??
 
Who(name?) was Maimunah's mother/Kluett's sister? In that case it matters less if Kluett breeds...
 
Zoofan15 said:
Santan and Dinar both came from Toronto Zoo. Santan (born 1977) arrived at Melbourne Zoo in 1987; Dinar (born 1987) arrived at Perth Zoo in 2004. As you mention, they have different parents (all wild born) so are of no relation together.

Kluet has relations in the region. Kluet (born 1995) has an old sister (full sibling), who gave birth to Maimunah in 1986. This means Maimunah (currently at Melbourne Zoo) and her two offspring, Malu (born 2003) and Dewi (born 2010) are Kluet's niece and great nephew/great niece.

I believe Perth Zoo are still content with their breeding of the first generation to Hsing Hsing and the second generation to Dinar, so with viable breeding options, have little need to import a new male.
In my opinion, they would be best to export one of their three branches (ideally Pulang's as hers is playing 'catch up' with the other two) and focus on Puteri and Puspa's branches, by breeding their respective daughters, Sekara and Teliti with Dinar.

Pulang (born 1993) and Lestari (born 2009) could be sent to Adelaide Zoo to breed with Kluet, or Kluet, Pulang and Lestari could found a new colony at either Auckland Zoo or Orana Wildlife Park. Adelaide could then return Puspa to Perth (would Sekara tolerate her?) and import Santan and Malu from Melbourne. This would leave Melbourne open to import a new male to breed with their mother/daughter pair Maimunah and Dewi. Maybe Sungai (born 2011) at Perth Zoo would be suitable??
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Interesting that the Australian studbook would knowingly allow the import two orangs from the same parental line. Surely there was a surplus male from an unconnected lineage?

I don't believe that PZ intends using Hsing in the future for breeding ie. he has been retired. They are now concentrating on the next generation with Dinar.

The design of the PZ orang complex has 5 on-show exhibits with a number off-show. I would imagine they plan to continue the three matriarchal lines of Pulang, Puteri and Puspa. It might be possible that surplus daughters are produced which may be sent off to other zoos (or continue with the Sumatra releases). Bear in mind that Punya's line has now been concluded at PZ. There is also the potential for other zoos in the region to take on post-breeding orangs from PZ.

Absolutely no chance in hell that PZ would take Puspa back. Firstly they managed to find someone to take her when PZ was short on space and secondly Puspa and Sekara together would be bloodshed.
 
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tetrapod said:
Interesting that the Australian studbook would knowingly allow the import two orangs from the same parental line. Surely there was a surplus male from an unconnected lineage?

I don't believe that PZ intends using Hsing in the future for breeding ie. he has been retired. They are now concentrating on the next generation with Dinar.

The design of the PZ orang complex has 5 on-show exhibits with a number off-show. I would imagine they plan to continue the three matriarchal lines of Pulang, Puteri and Puspa. It might be possible that surplus daughters are produced which may be sent off to other zoos (or continue with the Sumatra releases). Bear in mind that Punya's line has now been concluded at PZ. There is also the potential for other zoos in the region to take on post-breeding orangs from PZ.

Absolutely no chance in hell that PZ would take Puspa back. Firstly they managed to find someone to take her when PZ was short on space and secondly Puspa and Sekara together would be bloodshed.
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It's definately not the first time. In 1983, Auckland Zoo imported 1.2 Bornean orangutans to found their colony, joined by 1.0 in 1984. The 1983 imports consisted of a half brother and half sister (they shared the same father) and they were then bred together to produce a son in 1989. This male was then sent to Taronga Zoo to found a colony with two young Bornean females, but died before any offspring were produced.

Retiring Hsing Hsing from breeding seems like a wise decision. He has bred at least once with the 1st generation females, which represent four branches of Puan's family line. Like you say, one branch has been discontinued with the death of Punya (first generation), the export of her daughter (second generation) and release of her grandson (thrid generation).

If Perth Zoo wish to retire Hsing Hsing, retiring two of the first generation females will be easy (Puteri is almost post reproductive, if not already and Puspa has been exported). It seems a shame to retire Pulang from breeding though as she is only 24 years old.

Personally, I'd prefer to see Pulang (1993) and Lestari (2012) exported and Perth Zoo continue with the two branches (Puteri and Puspa's branches) by breeding Sekara (1990) and Teliti (2009) with Dinar. This will mean better use can be made of these two females for breeding, with offspring exported, retained or released as their situation may warrant.

I'm surprised to hear Puspa and Sekara don't get along? I remember you saying Puspa was an excellent mother ot Sekara, and since Puspa never bred again then surely the mother-daughter bond would have had little reason to deteriorate?
 
It would be nice to see an exchange with S.E. Asian zoos for Sumatran orang or reciprocally from the US collections to which orang utans have already been sent (.. is that realistic?).
 
Kifaru Bwana said:
It would be nice to see an exchange with S.E. Asian zoos for Sumatran orang or reciprocally from the US collections to which orang utans have already been sent (.. is that realistic?).
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Agreed, there must be a number of surplus Sumatran orangutans in North America and Asia that are unrelated to the orangutans in our region, many of which descend from European populations.

In the short term, I don't think we're as desperate for new genetics as other species (Sumatran tigers etc.) as Perth Zoo Zoo can continue breeding their second generation females to Dinar, Sungai could be sent to Melbourne to breed with Maimunah and Dewi and Kluet could breed with Pulang and Lestari at Auckland Zoo with Orana Wildife Park and Adelaide acting as holders of non breeding, surplus orangutans (eg. Puspa, Santan, Malu etc.). Just my opinion of course, and surely the import of new genetics can only be a good thing.

In the next decade, we're surely see other zoos/wildlife parks acquire this species. Possibly the new zoo in Sydney?
 
Thanks to and agreed on all suggestions my fellow Zoochat-posters! I wish the ZAA program would take these on board and creates the necessary zoo spaces both in existing and new facilities within the ZAA region to follow through on sustainable management of populations of both orangs and tiger and allowing for continuity in (and having sufficient) breeding options on an acceptable time frame (where once in every ... 10-15 years a birth does not reflect natural breeding cycles for the species - in this case orang utan - and quite possibly will (and in my humble opinion already has and does) negatively impact the available options. AND: in my humble view it need not be and given the potential for resolution of the status quo almost a given ... demand on the ZAA to act.

Given that that Australia, New Zealand and surrounding Island nations are so close to the S.E. Asian Mainland and some of the myriad of islands on the Lydekker / Wallacea fringe AND the very fact to having good political and cultural ties with the region would almost make this a definite (point of criticism: if only the import / export regulations would be in the interest of species conservation breeding ex situ and habitat conservation in situ), one would expect my "nice to have" could be the reality on the ground.

BTW as a more personal and somewhat political observation: I will sadly have to admit to the rather oblique and sorry state of affairs of former Dutch colonials in not having the best official diplomatic relations - which is hampering progress both on affairs culturally, socio-economic, politically and otherwise - in the best of standing with the new Republic of Indonesia ....). Personally, I am much dismayed about this and have and always will continue to call out our Government's oversights in establishing a firm and friendly relationship. There is ... so much more that ties and connects us than which divides us here!
 
Zoofan15 said:
Agreed, there must be a number of surplus Sumatran orangutans in North America and Asia that are unrelated to the orangutans in our region, many of which descend from European populations.

In the short term, I don't think we're as desperate for new genetics as other species (Sumatran tigers etc.) as Perth Zoo Zoo can continue breeding their second generation females to Dinar, Sungai could be sent to Melbourne to breed with Maimunah and Dewi and Kluet could breed with Pulang and Lestari at Auckland Zoo with Orana Wildife Park and Adelaide acting as holders of non breeding, surplus orangutans (eg. Puspa, Santan, Malu etc.). Just my opinion of course, and surely the import of new genetics can only be a good thing.

In the next decade, we're surely see other zoos/wildlife parks acquire this species. Possibly the new zoo in Sydney?
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Unfortunately if the zoos made all the moves you suggest then the region would be totally dominated by Perth genes - hardly a move to widen the gene pool within the region. Australasia would be forever forced to import new blood every new generation. Also a bit rough that Adelaide who have held and bred orangs (although unsuccessfully reared) for decades, gets reduced to holding non-breeding individuals! But there is definitely a need to get more zoos interested in holding orangs.
The new Sydney zoo is an interesting proposition. If they seriously took on orangs would Taronga bother to bring them back? After all they have chimps and gorillas, and no longer have a useable orang enclosure...
 
Don't forget that Mogo is taking on Orangs and I'm sure within the next decade will be looking to house a breeding group of Sumatrans, Offering another holder in the region.
 
Puan (Sumatran Orangutan)

Puan (F)
Born in Sumatra 01/01/1953
Arrived at Perth Zoo 31/12/1968
Died at Perth Zoo 18/06/2018

Puan gave birth to ten offspring at Perth Zoo:

Puteri (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 12/06/1970
Still at Perth Zoo
Sire: Atjeh

Puntjak (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 24/03/1972
Sent to Adelaide Zoo 03/08/1982
Died at Adelaide Zoo 00/12/1999
Sire: Atjeh

Unnamed (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 25/02/1974
Died at Perth Zoo 08/03/1974
Sire: Atjeh

Puspa (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 30/01/1975
Sent to Adelaide Zoo 21/12/1978
Sent to Perth Zoo 02/12/1981
Sent to Adelaide Zoo 13/01/2011
Sire: Atjeh

Puas (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 09/12/1976
Died at Perth Zoo 16/06/1978
Sire: Atjeh

Pusung (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 25/02/1978
Sent to Singapore Zoo 28/03/1989
Sent to Adelaide Zoo 11/10/2000
Died at Adelaide Zoo 15/04/2009
Sire: Atjeh

Putik (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 15/01/1980
Died at Perth Zoo 10/09/1980
Sire: Atjeh

Punya (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 05/06/1981
Died at Perth Zoo 05/06/2013
Sire: Atjeh

Puluh (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 23/09/1987
Sent to Chester Zoo 15/12/1996
Sire: Atjeh

Pulang (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 21/12/1993
Still at Perth Zoo
Sire: Atjeh


Puteri has given birth to six offspring at Perth Zoo:

Utama (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 19/06/1979
Still at Perth Zoo
Sire: Atjeh

Unnamed (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 10/12/1981
Died at Perth Zoo 20/12/1981
Sire: Puntjak

Unnamed (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 24/06/1983
Died at Perth Zoo 26/07/1983
Sire: Atjeh

Udara (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 06/02/1987
Died at Perth Zoo 07/09/1991
Sire: Atjeh

Temara (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 14/09/1992
Sent to Sumatra 31/10/2006 - Release
Sire: Hsing Hsing

Teliti (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 20/10/2009
Still at Perth Zoo
Sire: Hsing Hsing

Utama has given birth to one offspring at Perth Zoo:

Unnamed (F)
Stillborn at Perth Zoo 16/10/2012
Sire: Hsing Hsing


Puspa gave birth to one offspring at Perth Zoo:

Sekara (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 20/07/1990
Still at Perth Zoo
Sire: Hsing Hsing

Sekara has given birth to two offspring at Perth Zoo:

Semeru (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 13/06/2005
Sent to Sumatra 16/10/2011 - Release
Died in Sumatra 03/04/2013
Sire: Dinar

Sungai (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 30/12/2011
Still at Perth Zoo
Sire: Dinar


Punya gave birth to one offspring at Perth Zoo:

Negara (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 05/12/1993
Sent to Oklahoma City Zoo 12/10/2016
Sire: Hsing Hsing

Negara gave birth to one offspring at Perth Zoo:

Nyaru (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 20/10/2007
Sent to Sumatra 10/05/2016 - Release
Sire: Dinar


Pulang has given birth to one offspring at Perth Zoo:

Lestari (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 09/01/2012
Still at Perth Zoo
Sire: Hsing Hsing
 
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Binte (Bornean Orangutan)

Binte (F)
Born in Borneo 01/01/1958
Arrived at Perth Zoo 31/12/1968
Sent to Singapore Zoo 29/06/1983
Died at Singapore Zoo 12/12/1984

Binte gave birth to five offspring at Perth Zoo:

Bintang (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 09/10/1970
Sent to Hyderabad Zoo 21/03/1986
Died at Hyderbad Zoo 30/08/1987
Sire: Atjeh

Unnamed (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 22/03/1973
Died at Perth Zoo 22/03/1973
Sire: Atjeh

Binar (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 02/05/1974
Sent to Hyderbad Zoo 21/03/1986
Died at Hyderbad Zoo 01/09/1988
Sire: Atjeh

Bini (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 09/12/1975
Sent to Peshwae Park Zoo 08/11/1985
Sent to Nandankanan Bio Park Unknown
Sire: Atjeh

Bingkis (M)
Born at Perth Zoo 09/10/1979
Sent to Kamla Nehru Zoo 29/11/1985
Died at Kamla Nehru Zoo 28/06/1988
Sire: Atjeh


Bintang gave birth to one offspring at Perth Zoo:

Indah (F)
Born at Perth Zoo 25/01/1979
Sent to Kamla Nehru Zoo 29/11/1985
Died at Kamla Nehru Zoo 17/06/1986


Additional notes/info:

The sire of Binte's five infants born at Perth Zoo was Atjeh (a Sumatran orangutan), so they were all hybrids.

Binte was sent to the Singapore Zoo in 1983 to be paired with a male Bornean orangutan. Binte died giving birth to her sixth infant the following year, though the female infant survived and was named Binte II. Binte II has since given birth to four infants of her own.
 
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