Phase out species in United States

I do not expect you to agree with me on this, but I would like to have more of a balance in the animals that zoos choose to keep. Keeping animals purely for their popularity is not conservation.

I think this gets to the core of the issues in this discussion. In fact, keeping popular animals does foster the conservation efforts of zoos - to my mind, it is the fostering of understanding and appreciation of wildlife in general that can help get the general public more interested in conservation. Hence, the idea of "charismatic megafauna", which provide a "face" for the conservation efforts of the less popular or charismatic species. Many of these larger, popular species are in fact rare in the wild, even if not in zoos, so if it serves conservation both by allowing the maintenance of fail-safe populations and fostering public interest in conservation, how is that a bad thing? Species that both thrive in captivity and engage and educate the public on conservation issues: what is the problem here?

In my "selfish mind", I too wish that zoos had a greater variety of species - I'm one who would love to see examples of as many species (particularly rare ones) as possible. But I understand the realities of the situation call for some other approach. To my "practical mind", the AZA's approach of creating regional collection plans through the work of taxon advisory groups is a thoughtful, practical approach to furthering the conservation and educational goals of zoos.
 
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Hello Jibster

Thanks for your reply. I can understand where you're coming from, as money from zoos can be used to finance conservation in the wild. I would like it if marketing teams were more honest about expensive new projects, as I still feel it would be better for millions of pounds to be spent on saving species in the wild, rather than being spent on architect fees. As a volunteer, I like it when visitors ask for obscure animals, but most ask for the ABCs, rather than the XYZs. Despite this, various new books depict obscure endangered animals. One book for children has a photograph of a greater bamboo lemur on the cover. Perhaps it is a case of education, using various audio-visual techniques, including CCTV, to interest visitors in small, obscure species that they hadn't heard of. Also, it would be a good idea to not have the same ABC animals in zoos that are close to each other. There are so many interesting animals in the world and it is a shame when many visitors only know a relatively small number of species.
 
I disagree with the pessimistic note that bringing new endangered species for captive breeding is impossible. A handful of zoos and individuals are interested in that - in Europe it is the owner of RSCC and the director of Wroclaw zoo. And they manage it.

I think AZA and EAZA should cooperate more. The case of tigers is an example: both Europe and America maintain populations of Siberians and Sumatrans, but the other subspecies (Indochinese and Malayan) are hardly represented. And with popularity of tigers, there is enough places to keep populations of all six extant subspecies.

I am also increasingly critical of the current fashion of building large, fake constructed habitats, usually for one or a few popular species and at extremely big cost. I see more and more examples of totally different, much cheaper exhibits which are extremely popular. This current fashion is just a fashion, very inefficient in terms of funds and species conservation, and will pass and is not necessary.

I also think that integral part of educational mission of zoos is presenting less common animals, ones not already known from films and advertisements. There is a need of showing people that zebra is more than one species of animals, that there are more cats than tigers and lions etc. I understand that zoos need some charismatic animals, but showing nothing but them is wrong.

Since AZA talks obsessively about zoos getting most visitors per dollar of investment, maybe there is a need of active research how to make less 'charismatic' species popular? This is easier that it seems. Small animals are especially good for close interaction with visitors, and contact or feeding sessions. These are extremely popular and can be very profitable. Smaller animals can be also presented in very beautiful, naturalistic exhibits at relatively low cost.
 
I think AZA and EAZA should cooperate more. The case of tigers is an example: both Europe and America maintain populations of Siberians and Sumatrans, but the other subspecies (Indochinese and Malayan) are hardly represented. And with popularity of tigers, there is enough places to keep populations of all six extant subspecies.

I would just like to make the correction that there are no Indochinese Tigers in the US or Europe. All animals listed as such are actually Malayan Tigers. And I wouldn't say Malayan Tigers are hardly represented. They may be rarer in captivity than Amur and Sumatran Tigers but they're being captively bred. It'd be nice if Bengal or Indochinese Tigers could get a captive population as well but all the extent tigers might be pushing it. I don't doubt it's possible, though.

As mentioned before, I think Lions and Leopards are species that could certainly have two or three subspecies being worked with in zoos. In the US I believe there are Persian and North Chinese Leopards around and if zoos wanted they could import Africans from South Africa and I'm sure, if managed correctly, all could have good populations. Europe keeps and, I believe, breeds Amur, North Chinese, Persian, Sri Lankan, and Javan Leopards and I know African are about though am not sure on their situation. The US only has Transvaal Lions afaik but Europe keeps a good few subspecies to varying degrees of success. With the possibility of Ethiopian Lions being a completely different species and the probable future failure of Asiatic Lions in European zoos, I think it might be a good idea to at least consider starting captive populations for one or both of these if imports are feasible.

One group which I find really underrepresented are deer. With all these recent splits and reevaluations of deer species (the largest seeming to be of the genus Cervus) there are now loads more accepted species whom are highly endangered but hardly represented in captivity. Of course, this is not in itself the fault of the AZA and US zoos as the US appears to have a law against importing deer into the country. Of course, even without this there don't seem to be many deer species represented in captive breeding programs (SSP). The only species which come to mind here are Burmese Brow-Antlered Deer, Chinese Muntjac, Western Tufted Deer, and Southern Pudú. Obviously there are a good few others which are represented but aren't being actively worked with it seems.

Alright well that started out as a single, small correction and ended in a pretty big rant:p

~Thylo:cool:
 
I disagree with the pessimistic note that bringing new endangered species for captive breeding is impossible. A handful of zoos and individuals are interested in that - in Europe it is the owner of RSCC and the director of Wroclaw zoo. And they manage it.

I think AZA and EAZA should cooperate more. The case of tigers is an example: both Europe and America maintain populations of Siberians and Sumatrans, but the other subspecies (Indochinese and Malayan) are hardly represented. And with popularity of tigers, there is enough places to keep populations of all six extant subspecies.

I am also increasingly critical of the current fashion of building large, fake constructed habitats, usually for one or a few popular species and at extremely big cost. I see more and more examples of totally different, much cheaper exhibits which are extremely popular. This current fashion is just a fashion, very inefficient in terms of funds and species conservation, and will pass and is not necessary.

I also think that integral part of educational mission of zoos is presenting less common animals, ones not already known from films and advertisements. There is a need of showing people that zebra is more than one species of animals, that there are more cats than tigers and lions etc. I understand that zoos need some charismatic animals, but showing nothing but them is wrong.

Since AZA talks obsessively about zoos getting most visitors per dollar of investment, maybe there is a need of active research how to make less 'charismatic' species popular? This is easier that it seems. Small animals are especially good for close interaction with visitors, and contact or feeding sessions. These are extremely popular and can be very profitable. Smaller animals can be also presented in very beautiful, naturalistic exhibits at relatively low cost.

A few things:

As to bringing new species in for captive breeding, the number of criteria needed to be met are high. I don't doubt that there are some species that could be brought in for captive breeding, but the question is whether that is necessary or indeed helpful for many species. I would not doubt that many invertebrates could be helped by captive breeding, but don't see much effort on the part of zoos to help these species (due to public interest, in many parts - even those zoos with invertebrates on exhibit do not, to my knowledge, focus much on captive breeding for conservation's sake). But the question becomes dicier with vertebrates - many of the animals most desirable by zoos are the animals for whom captive breeding would be the least desirable conservation solution (for several reasons, including problems finding sufficient space for a sustainable populations, problems sourcing individuals from the wild or private/unmanaged collections, not to mention impraticality/impossibility of reintroduction of captive individuals to a wild population in the future). The AZA is not inherently against bringing new species or subspecies in for captive breeding, but only where there is sufficient institutional interest/capacity and an identified source of a founder population (among other criteria). There simply aren't many taxa that meet both these criteria.


Perhaps it is feasible, in a perfect world, for there to be space for all 6 tiger subspecies to be managed in AZA/EAZA collections, if there was sufficient international collaboration. But this is impractical - (1) the Indochinese tiger is unrepresented in collections (as all individuals claimed to be Indochinese were taken from the Malayan population, now known to be a separate subspecies) and would require removal of individuals from the wild; (2) the South Chinese tiger is effectively (if not actually) extinct in the wild and all remaining animals are held in Chinese zoos; and (3) the Bengal tiger is well-represented in captivity outside of AZA/EAZA collections and is the subspecies least in need of help.

As to the comments about exhibit design, I'll concede that I'm not necessarily a fan of how zoos spend their money on new development, but to not see that there are a large number of concerns beyond conservation and money which lead zoos to make decisions, and I'm not privy to the information to intelligently criticize most of them. If you would elaborate more on your distinction between "large, fake constructed habitats" and the "totally different, much cheaper exhibits which are extremely popular," complete with some examples, I might be better able to understand and respond to your point.

And I would agree with your point that zoos need to do a better job with education about diversity, but not necessarily that they must do a better job presenting "less popular species." You suggest, for example, that zoos must do better "showing people that zebra is more than one species of animals" - but how does a zoo do that? Should every zoo exhibit more than one species of zebra to meet its educational goals? Or is a well-designed exhibit of a single species of zebra with interpretive elements mentioning other species sufficient? The whole point is that zoos can't do everything - in most cases, for their educational purposes, they must rely on representative species.

I don't know of any accredited zoo with a broad collection focus that does not include many types of "less charismatic" species. The problem is that zoos are necessarily limited by funding (and to a much lesser degree, space) and must make decisions on where to focus their limited resources. Many of these smaller species do not, for many reasons, make for exhibits that would be compelling to the general public. There are many endangered smaller rodents and shrews that could benefit from captive breeding, but I don't see any zoos clamoring to add them to their collections (not to mention fossorial species - is there any zoo that exhibits golden moles). While there may be a huge number of primate species that could benefit from captive breeding programs, limitations of space force some hard decisions.

In the end, zoos are mostly in the business of displaying species to the public - education and (some) conservation comes along with this. In many cases, public display is not conducive to sustainable captive breeding efforts. Many, if not most, species for which captive breeding is an essential part of an overall conservation plan (beyond merely providing a possible "insurance" population or serving an educational purpose) would not be optimally suited to public display, especially in a financial sense. And many of the most critically endangered species that have been "saved" by captive breeding have either never been on exhibit or are only exhibited to a very limited degree (e.g., California condor, Kihansi spray toad, echo parakeet).

The simple fact is, besides a few of us "zoo nerds," most of the zoo-going public would not appreciate it if zoos chose to forego the display of charismatic megafauna for the display of less interesting (in display terms), if more important (in conservation terms), species. It's simply not in the best interest of a zoo to divert most of its limited resources to the public display of less "charismatic" species solely for the purposes of captive breeding.
 
Perhaps it is feasible, in a perfect world, for there to be space for all 6 tiger subspecies to be managed in AZA/EAZA collections, if there was sufficient international collaboration. But this is impractical - (1) the Indochinese tiger is unrepresented in collections (as all individuals claimed to be Indochinese were taken from the Malayan population, now known to be a separate subspecies) and would require removal of individuals from the wild; (2) the South Chinese tiger is effectively (if not actually) extinct in the wild and all remaining animals are held in Chinese zoos; and (3) the Bengal tiger is well-represented in captivity outside of AZA/EAZA collections and is the subspecies least in need of help.

Not my argument but this paragraph has really leapt out at me for all the wrong reasons :-
Point 1 :- There are several Indochinese tigers in captivity in South-East Asia (http://www.zoochat.com/1778/indochinese-tiger-hanoi-zoo-15-03-a-269989/), so it would be a case of importing from captive stock.
Point 2 :- The South Chinese tiger is probably extinct in captivity in China as well, a lot of animals show a degree of hybridisation.
Point 3 :- As far as I'm aware all tigers labelled as Bengal are subspecific crosses but there is a large (pure) population in Indian zoos and would also be available to import if India agreed to it. No none accredited zoos in Europe or America have true Bengal tigers and no accredited zoos do either.
 
Not my argument but this paragraph has really leapt out at me for all the wrong reasons :-
Point 1 :- There are several Indochinese tigers in captivity in South-East Asia (http://www.zoochat.com/1778/indochinese-tiger-hanoi-zoo-15-03-a-269989/), so it would be a case of importing from captive stock.
Point 2 :- The South Chinese tiger is probably extinct in captivity in China as well, a lot of animals show a degree of hybridisation.
Point 3 :- As far as I'm aware all tigers labelled as Bengal are subspecific crosses but there is a large (pure) population in Indian zoos and would also be available to import if India agreed to it. No none accredited zoos in Europe or America have true Bengal tigers and no accredited zoos do either.

Thanks for the corrections/additions. I knew that most of the Bengals in the population were subspecific crosses, but I'm not sure that all are. And I misspoke on the Indochinese Tiger - I meant solely that there were no Indochinese tigers in AZA/EAZA collections; besides, regardless of "several" present in captivity, importing a few would still be probably not be a sufficient number to sustain the subspecies at an acceptable level of genetic diversity. The same may or may not be true of true "Bengal" tigers. As for South Chinese tigers, I was aware of some hybridization, but I'm not aware that the subspecies has been written off yet and there appears to be hope that at least some pure "South Chinese" tigers remain (of course, whatever population remains is inbred and from such a small founder stock that the subspecies may be functionally dead).

Most importantly, it appears that AZA members lack institutional interest or space to support a program for an additional subspecies at this time. The 2009 RCP suggests that the ca. 350 available spaces will be filled by the currently managed three subspecies, with spaces vacated by generic tigers to be filled by tigers of managed subspecies. If (1) there is sufficient availability of founder stock and (2) the generic population has declined to leave empty places or challenges with Sumatrans lead to its phase out, then I could see the TAG revisiting its decision. Given the current situation, it appears most likely that only the Bengal subspecies could be added (and it is the subspecies in least danger at present).
 
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I agree with a lot of your views, as I said it's not my argument but just thought that the tiger situation needed some clarifying! :p

In regards to which subspecies would be easiest to obtain then if it were Bengal then the collections involved would have to deal with the CZA! Having seen the effort that it takes to get fresh Asiatic lion blood then good luck getting enough tigers to support a viable population. Indochinese tigers however are found in several countries so therefore there is more chance of coming across a more co-operative government or institution.
 
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Thanks for the corrections/additions. I knew that most of the Bengals in the population were subspecific crosses, but I'm not sure that all are.

Every single "Bengal" tiger outside India is indeed a zoo-mix individual; the last proven pure individual outside the Indian population was a male at Bristol Zoo in 1984, although a handful of debated individuals floated around until more recently - however the final of these died at Wingst in 2013.
 
Every single "Bengal" tiger outside India is indeed a zoo-mix individual; the last proven pure individual outside the Indian population was a male at Bristol Zoo in 1984, although a handful of debated individuals floated around until more recently - however the final of these died at Wingst in 2013.
um, that's a very definite statement when you have no idea what is in zoos in Asia!

Zoo Negara's current white tigers came directly from India and are likely to be pure (albeit highly inbred) Bengals. I have only been to a small fraction of Asian zoos, and most have little English signage beyond "tiger", but I would not be surprised to find pure Bengals in other Asian zoos also.
 
Every single "Bengal" tiger outside India is indeed a zoo-mix individual; the last proven pure individual outside the Indian population was a male at Bristol Zoo in 1984, although a handful of debated individuals floated around until more recently - however the final of these died at Wingst in 2013.
I know I'm resurrecting a thread, but this is interesting to read. Especially since there are some zoos that do label their tigers as Bengal, even one here in North Dakota. Likely these tigers are hybrids or inbred though. I'm wondering what the genetic purity is of circus tigers in the USA.
 
I know I'm resurrecting a thread, but this is interesting to read. Especially since there are some zoos that do label their tigers as Bengal, even one here in North Dakota. Likely these tigers are hybrids or inbred though. I'm wondering what the genetic purity is of circus tigers in the USA.

Probably very impure, since white tigers are commonplace among circuses.
 
Probably very impure, since white tigers are commonplace among circuses.

White tigers can be of a pure subspecies; it's just a recessive mutation. That being said, my guess would be that circus tigers are almost all hybridized to at least some degree. Anything in the US that is labelled Bengal is probably not pure.
 
You have hit the majority of factors the TAGs consider right on the head. Those are the most significant along with genetics and demography of the population. There is zero point in having 10 000 captive tigers if they are horribly inbred. And an unstable age or gender bias can also create enormous problems. Boom busts do no species any good.

TAGs will ask zoos to try to create more space when deemed necessary for the populations health. But to do that there must be institutional interest which is in part driven by guest interest. Yes almost every zoo has lions and tigers because that is what guests expect and are the big pulls for guests. They are easily identifiable for people. Now how many people know what they are looking at when they see say a fishing cat? Maybe a tiny fraction of people. Are those rarities most dont recognize going to draw in the visitors who's dollars are the ones building the exhibits? Not too likely. That creates less institutional interest which creates less spaces, even if the population could be grown and founders added. If a zoo has $10 million to spend on exhibits they will try to make sure they get the best bang for the buck by supporting some big feature animals everyone will flock to see and sprinkling in some rarer extras if they can. It will be the star animals drawing in the majority of guests though. In the end zoos are businesses that need to make enough money to reinvest in itself.

TAGs have to make tough calls but some arent that hard. If the population isnt sustainable then its easier. Some species have small populations and its almost impossible to get new stock. If there isnt interest in growing a population or zoos are deciding on their own this species just isnt working for them then its easier. TAGs cannot make zoos keep a species if they just dont want them. In the end each zoo has the choice to keep what it wants. TAGs just make recommendations. Sometimes its easy to give up on a species because another region has a strong breeding program. Often if European, Japanese or Aussie zoos have thriving populations it frees up the AZA to refocus its attention on another species.

Its a complex thing. Each decision is thoroughly examined, considered and reconsidered with the goal of doing the most good they can with the limited space, funds and animals they have. I'm glad that I'm not the one making those kinds of decisions.
Isn't the species of tiger that are in zoos the Malayan indo Chinese amur and Bengal and what I'm sure is a cross breed of Siberian as for leopards I know amur is high on the list but what about snow leopards or are they on a phase out. I' suprised that zoos like lincoln park and brookfield are just sticking to the black rhino conservation shouldn' the Indian, and other rarer rhino species be taken into account. As far as apes go though I'm sure harder to take care of what about eastern gorillas and possibly mountain though I am sure that is to small of a population.
 
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