Possible COVID-19 vaccines and treatments

birdsandbats

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5+ year member
{Note from mods - this thread split from here: Long-term effects of COVID-19 economic downturn on zoos}




Just curious here - treatments involving a plasma transfer from someone who has had the virus and recovered to someone who has the virus seem to be working pretty well so far. Could this be used in place of a vaccine? I don't know much about this kind of thing.
 
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Just curious here - treatments involving a plasma transfer from someone who has had the virus and recovered to someone who has the virus seem to be working pretty well so far. Could this be used in place of a vaccine? I don't know much about this kind of thing.

Plasma transfers are relatively complicated medical procedures. On the other hand, vaccines are literally a jab in the arm and it's done. Schools can administer over 100 vaccinations in an hour with a single worker, while a plasma transfer would cost many times more and would take hours to do one, so probably not the most efficient way of going about this.
 
Plasma transfers are relatively complicated medical procedures. On the other hand, vaccines are literally a jab in the arm and it's done. Schools can administer over 100 vaccinations in an hour with a single worker, while a plasma transfer would cost many times more and would take hours to do one, so probably not the most efficient way of going about this.
That makes sense, but could the plasma transfer potentially end the lock-down (or at least ease it) until a vaccine is developed?
 
That makes sense, but could the plasma transfer potentially end the lock-down (or at least ease it) until a vaccine is developed?

I'm honestly not sure people would be willing to have it if they had to pay for it. They cost around £2000 - £6500 ($2500 - $8200) in the UK, and mass procedures wouldn't bring that price down very much. Jabs would either be free (paid for by the government) or cost £3 or so. They are really cheap, easy to mass produce and act fast. They are also quick and limited interaction between the person who administers it and the patient is needed.

Plasma transfers are also difficult and a number of difficulties can arise. Sometimes it can be dangerous. In summary, I guess either people won't be willing to pay or the government won't be able to. Either or really. I think governments are therefore much more willing to sit still and wait for the vaccine to arrive than to waste money on dangerous, long and pricy blood transfusions. :)
 
The fundamental difference between a vaccine and a plasma transfer is not the cost. A vaccine will potentially prevent someone from contracting the virus, while a plasma transfer will "only" treat someone who already has it. It should go without saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We certainly can't pin all our hopes on any option that requires people to be sick enough to suspect they have it. Until and unless a person realizes they're contagious, spread continues.
 
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There are a few things that worry me regarding a potential vaccine against Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 and that I so far haven't heard officials, experts or the media really considering or talking about.

Firstly, Sars-Cov-2 is an RNA virus and those are generally notorious for relatively rapid mutation. As far as I understand coronaviruses do not mutate as fast as for example influenza viruses, but there have already been reports about different strains of Sars-Cov-2 being present and of mutations occurring. That I think begs the question whether, if vaccines are developed using and based on the current strains, these vaccines will be sufficiently effective against the potentially mutated strains of it present at the time the vaccine becomes available. I have so far not really seen or heard any experts comment on this matter.

Secondly, if a vaccine were to become available, in order for it to work effectively you would have to get the vast majority of the population inoculated. How will that be achieved? There is already a sizable and vocal anti-vaccination movement being allowed to operate in most Western countries with impunity, and they will certainly jump on this (they have already been seen taking part in anti-lockdown protests). And if the vaccine is made mandatory, as I believe it probably should, there will be a lot of people and groups getting upset about that also. Mandatory vaccination is something most governments and politicians do not want to do or in some cases are not legally able to do.
 
Mandatory vaccination might not be possible - but proof of vaccination to access health care, schooling, social services, pensions, permission to travel, access to zoos, museums and sports facilities, bars, clubs etc etc perhaps - could provide some fairly hefty 'carrots', if the 'stick' was not legal...
 
From what I have read so far, Sars-Cov-2 is rather very slow to mutate compared to other RNA viruses. How one person described it to me, it has pretty strong after-production-control of its key pieces of genetic information. So vaccine, if developed, should catch all circulating strains.

The more pressing problem is short lifespan of antibodies in people. Maybe 20% of pacients (those with mild or no symptoms) dont develop enough antibodies for tests to find them. And in those who develop them, there is marked decrease of them already after 2 months. This virus is here not long enough to have precise observations yet. But based on data so far collected and presumed similariry to SARS, we can expect antibodies after this infection that will last only 1-2 years on average. So vaccine, if developed, will not protect people for long time, definitely not lifelong. We can expect re-vacconation will be neccessary every 12 months or so. That makes herd immunity hard to achieve now when this virus hit the whole world. It would need coordination between all countries.
 
There is already a sizable and vocal anti-vaccination movement being allowed to operate in most Western countries with impunity, and they will certainly jump on this (they have already been seen taking part in anti-lockdown protests). And if the vaccine is made mandatory, as I believe it probably should, there will be a lot of people and groups getting upset about that also. Mandatory vaccination is something most governments and politicians do not want to do or in some cases are not legally able to do.

I was actually hoping that this pandemic would really illustrate to the anti-vax movement the inherent stupidity of their bull**** ideology but seeing ample evidence of the backlash online throws all hopes of that out of the window. Totally medieval phenomenon.
 
From what I have read so far, Sars-Cov-2 is rather very slow to mutate compared to other RNA viruses. How one person described it to me, it has pretty strong after-production-control of its key pieces of genetic information. So vaccine, if developed, should catch all circulating strains.

The more pressing problem is short lifespan of antibodies in people. Maybe 20% of pacients (those with mild or no symptoms) dont develop enough antibodies for tests to find them. And in those who develop them, there is marked decrease of them already after 2 months. This virus is here not long enough to have precise observations yet. But based on data so far collected and presumed similariry to SARS, we can expect antibodies after this infection that will last only 1-2 years on average. So vaccine, if developed, will not protect people for long time, definitely not lifelong. We can expect re-vacconation will be neccessary every 12 months or so. That makes herd immunity hard to achieve now when this virus hit the whole world. It would need coordination between all countries.

If that is the case that would be very helpful, and one of the few positives about this virus. Have you perhaps seen any sources on the mutation rate and information control of Sars-CoV-2? I will try to do some research also at some point.

There is a lot we do not yet know about this virus, and immunity and antibodies are one of those. If it turns out to be true that antibodies are only temporarily, this might have to become something like the booster shots necessary for immunity against some other diseases. Re-vaccination might also be a way to catch up with and ensure immunity against new and mutates strains, like with the influenza viruses. I don't know how these things work exactly, but perhaps if a first vaccine against a Sars-CoV-2 has been developed it might be easier to adapt it later on?

Coordination not only between nations but also within nation and the development of population wide, annual or bi-annual vaccination campagnes would likely be required. That is not going to be easy at all, but it likely will have to be done - and at least in developing countries it might happen.

I was actually hoping that this pandemic would really illustrate to the anti-vax movement the inherent stupidity of their bull**** ideology but seeing ample evidence of the backlash online throws all hopes of that out of the window. Totally medieval phenomenon.

Sadly given the number of vaccine-related conspiracy theories and the presence of anti-vaxxers in the idiotic movements protesting the sadly necessary lock-downs I think we will likely be dealing with these idiots a lot more in the coming months and years. I feel these movements should be dealt with more strongly, but it is difficult to do that in societies that rightly value freedom of speech and freedom of the press, even for the worst kinds of idiocy. Probably the best governments will be able to do is to counter their arguments strongly and clearly, with clear arguments, and to very clearly argue in favor of and encourage vaccination. I would prefer not to see mandatory vaccination against Sars-Cov-2 happening, but if it is the only option I will not oppose it either.

Mandatory vaccination might not be possible - but proof of vaccination to access health care, schooling, social services, pensions, permission to travel, access to zoos, museums and sports facilities, bars, clubs etc
etc perhaps - could provide some fairly hefty 'carrots', if the 'stick' was not legal...

I don't think it would be legal to deny essential services like health care, social services or food based on proof of vaccination. And even the denial of non-essential services, schooling, employment, travel or access to leisure on that basis could I think well be legally challenged in (constitutional) courts and might not be held up, even in the face of a pandemic. I'm not hugely in favor of using this kind of "carrot" in a hefty-handed form, and it certainly should not be the first choice.
 
Sadly given the number of vaccine-related conspiracy theories and the presence of anti-vaxxers in the idiotic movements protesting the sadly necessary lock-downs I think we will likely be dealing with these idiots a lot more in the coming months and years. I feel these movements should be dealt with more strongly, but it is difficult to do that in societies that rightly value freedom of speech and freedom of the press, even for the worst kinds of idiocy. Probably the best governments will be able to do is to counter their arguments strongly and clearly, with clear arguments, and to very clearly argue in favor of and encourage vaccination. I would prefer not to see mandatory vaccination against Sars-Cov-2 happening, but if it is the only option I will not oppose it either.

I agree , they are unlikely to suddenly be convinced of the scientific rationale for vaccination programes and I too believe there should be a much stronger pushback against this movement. The irony is that their "personal freedoms" are directly infringing on ours and are especially dangerous in both the current crisis and with the growing background threat of antibiotic resistance.

We are seeing (and are going to likely continue seeing ) the resurgence of diseases that much of the world once had a handle on like polio, measles , rubella and a whole host of other nasty and debilitating conditions. It is very concerning to say the least. I thought we had left a lot of this nonsense behind us back in the 19th century but it seems that the anti-vaxxers desperately want both more pandemics and a return to the "good old" pre-vaccine days of Victorian premature mortality rates from curable diseases.

My significant other is a doctor and actually has to try to dialogue with parents who are dead set against having their children vaccinated against diseases like yellow fever with its high rate of lethality. Most of these self declared "experts" came to their stance against vaccination from reading facebook posts. Total insanity.
 
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There was a report out a few days ago about vaccine trials at Oxford University which look promising. They had been trialling vaccines for an earlier form of coronavirus which gave them a head-start on the current pandemic. They have scheduled testing of the vaccine on 6000 people for the end of May.

The Oxford scientists now say that with an emergency approval from regulators, the first few million doses of their vaccine could be available by September — at least several months ahead of any of the other announced efforts — if it proves to be effective.

....

Scientists at the National Institutes of Health’s Rocky Mountain Laboratory in Montana last month inoculated six rhesus macaque monkeys with single doses of the Oxford vaccine. The animals were then exposed to heavy quantities of the virus that is causing the pandemic — exposure that had consistently sickened other monkeys in the lab. But more than 28 days later all six were healthy, said Vincent Munster, the researcher who conducted the test.



This link is to a story in the New York Times but it is in lots of other media as well.
In Race for a Coronavirus Vaccine, an Oxford Group Leaps Ahead
 
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