Proposed captive elephant reform (?)

I just thought about something: one of the big things anti-zoo people like to claim about elephant in particular is that claims that captive-bred elephants act as a reservoir for eventual reintroduction into the wild are misleading, since that hasn't happened.

Unfortunately if the Howletts' elephant release is a success, it's proof that... it is possible and, therefore, validates elephant captive breeding programmes, leaving the argument that breeding elephants in captivity does not aid their conservation incorrect.

So, oops.
 
Nathano said:
I just thought about something: one of the big things anti-zoo people like to claim about elephant in particular is that claims that captive-bred elephants act as a reservoir for eventual reintroduction into the wild are misleading, since that hasn't happened.

Unfortunately if the Howletts' elephant release is a success, it's proof that... it is possible and, therefore, validates elephant captive breeding programmes, leaving the argument that breeding elephants in captivity does not aid their conservation incorrect.

So, oops.
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That's a different and interesting take on things !
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Basically I contacted Amos Courage and King about the paper ( the same one that Kifaru has posted the link to today) was promptly sent it and the paper on the lemur and community based Conservation too.
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So was the second of these papers the one DA kept citing (and saying people had to request by email rather than answering any questions about his claims) as proof that he and Amos had demonstrated every single critically-endangered mammal in zoos was a dead-end species? Looking at the paper KB linked to today, that one certainly makes no such claim.

If the second one also has no bearing on the matter - which if it's focused on lemurs and community conservation only would seem to be the case - that makes the continuous deflections all the worse, as it suggests that not only did most people get no reply to their requests, but that even the person who did get a response wasn't sent the information requested!

Conversely, if the second paper *does* make that case, then as noted I think it would be worth you attaching it to a post here so we can all read it.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
So was the second of these papers the one DA kept citing (and saying people had to request by email rather than answering any questions about his claims) as proof that he and Amos had demonstrated every single critically-endangered mammal in zoos was a dead-end species? Looking at the paper KB linked to today, that one certainly makes no such claim.

If the second one also has no bearing on the matter - which if it's focused on lemurs and community conservation only would seem to be the case - that makes the continuous deflections all the worse, as it suggests that not only did most people get no reply to their requests, but that even the person who did get a response wasn't sent the information requested!

Conversely, if the second paper *does* make that case, then as noted I think it would be worth you attaching it to a post here so we can all read it.
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Honestly I can't remember as it was a while ago and I have deleted the file but it does looks like what I read.

I can try and request it again from Amos Courage or Tony King if you like ?
 
@TriUK why do you not be delete this thread, as the topic has been confirmed as bogus? The only purpose this thread has is too discuss what may have happened if the news was lidgit.
 
Nathano said:
It's been debunked by the minister in question - so the discussion is, as of this moment, only theoretical. However, it's an interesting topic of discussion.
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Theoretical perhaps only until the findings of the report / study are in and there seem to be a lot of influential animal rights campaigners lobbying for a certain conclusion to be made.

I don't really care either way because it is regarding elephants and there isn't likely to be a campaign against keeping lion tamarins or Livingstone fruit bats or giant jumping rats in zoos.

However if I was a zoo elephant afficionado or felt particularly passionate about these animals in zoos then I would be watching developments with interest and concern because I think it could go in any direction.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
Who is that ?
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The German theologican who wrote the famous poem "First They Came" about the inaction of himself and others towards the rise of Nazi Germany.

My intended analogy was that when anti-zoo campaigners are looking for a thin end of the wedge to achieve their ends with, openly saying you don't care either way whether they get a "win" because you have no interest in their current target has a very real risk of backfiring on you :p especially when one of the species you cite as one you do care about is a primate, which *is* another group anti-zoo campaigners have in their sights.
 
TeaLovingDave said:
The German theologican who wrote the famous poem "First They Came" about the inaction of himself and others towards the rise of Nazi Germany.

My intended analogy was that when anti-zoo campaigners are looking for a thin end of the wedge to achieve their ends with, openly saying you don't care either way whether they get a "win" because you have no interest in their current target has a very real risk of backfiring on you :p especially when one of the species you cite as one you do care about is a primate, which *is* another group anti-zoo campaigners have in their sights.
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Yes I got it now.

Well could be but I think it highly unlikely because megafauna are and have always really been the focus of these campaigns.

I did a search of Goldsmith and he was a childhood fan of Durrell which makes me think that Jersey would be the last zoo he would call for or back the closure of.

If we are brutally honest the Aspinall parks are as good as finished now and I can't see any viable future for them as anything that resembles what they once were.

On another note it is interesting to view the political network behind this move as even if Damian portrays himself as a maligned outsider of the "zooeaurocracry" he himself is evidently leaning on his own old boys network.

An anthropologist would find it fascinating because you have affinative and consanguinary and fictive kinship networks at play.
 
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Jennings said:
Conversely if it goes the way of most Aspinall reintroductions it will prove the nutters right. Call me a cynic but...
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I can see that there is a lot of people voicing their cynicism and concerns against it online now and in publications which leaves these plans open to a greater public scrutiny.

But as always the question is whether the public are more receptive to the nuanced more complex argument against or the simplistic pro narrative being driven by Aspinall foundation and Born Free etc ?
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
But as always the question is whether the public are more receptive to the nuanced more complex argument against or the simplistic pro narrative being driven by Aspinall foundation and Born Free etc ?
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Elephant captivity, by-and-large, isn't a big issue for the British public - certainly, there hasn't been a Blackfish moment that has swung public opinion. Certainly, there isn't as big a public backlash against it as there was against cetacean captivity in the late 90's.

Jennings said:
Conversely if it goes the way of most Aspinall reintroductions it will prove the nutters right. Call me a cynic but...
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However, if it goes right, it nobbles one of the big arguments against elephant captivity in particular - claims that captive breeding of elephants does nothing to help replenish populations in the wild. The Howletts' group being rewilded shows, yes, you can breed elephants for reintroduction.
 
Nathano said:
Elephant captivity, by-and-large, isn't a big issue for the British public - certainly, there hasn't been a Blackfish moment that has swung public opinion. Certainly, there isn't as big a public backlash against it as there was against cetacean captivity in the late 90's.



However, if it goes right, it nobbles one of the big arguments against elephant captivity in particular - claims that captive breeding of elephants does nothing to help replenish populations in the wild. The Howletts' group being rewilded shows, yes, you can breed elephants for reintroduction.
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Not yet but I think the animal rights groups will be hoping to engineer such a moment.
 
Onychorhynchus coronatus said:
But as always the question is whether the public are more receptive to the nuanced more complex argument against or the simplistic pro narrative being driven by Aspinall foundation and Born Free etc ?
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We libe in a country where the UK and Scottish and Welsh governments were able to convince the general public that they had banned foxhunting when in fact they had done nothing of the kind. The simplistic narrative will always win, especially where fluffy animals are concerned.
 
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