Pros and cons of animals in captivity

[khakibob]

But as for codes and regs pertaining to NZ hunting, are their any apart from the firearms laws and laws relating to hunting on specific land?


A friend of mine who organises hunts of his old breeding stags tells me he has to be quick to get to the carcase first so he can remove the ear tags. The triumphant hunter is then photographed with his trophy, before it is taken away to be mounted for shipping home.

Hunting reserves in NZ are inspected, licenced ,have minimum sizes & codes of practice.They have a couple of levels of regulation from an industry body to a govt regulatory body.Its a valuable well managed industry.

If your friend is good enough to manage breeding stags ,from tagging in the first place,velveting,removing hard antler,drawing semen,testing for Tb,etc,etc,etc. I'm sure he's good enough to remove the ear tags before the stag is released into the large reserve well before its ever hunted.

There are a few more holes in some of your other comments regarding what "actually" happens.

How large or small does an enclosure have to be, before it is or isn't a "canned hunt",20 acres, 500acres, 1000acres, 3000 acres, 50 000 acres?

Cheers Khakibob

 

[kiwipo]

Hunting reserves in NZ are inspected, licenced ,have minimum sizes & codes of practice.They have a couple of levels of regulation from an industry body to a govt regulatory body.Its a valuable well managed industry.

If your friend is good enough to manage breeding stags ,from tagging in the first place,velveting,removing hard antler,drawing semen,testing for Tb,etc,etc,etc. I'm sure he's good enough to remove the ear tags before the stag is released into the large reserve well before its ever hunted.

There are a few more holes in some of your other comments regarding what "actually" happens.

How large or small does an enclosure have to be, before it is or isn't a "canned hunt",20 acres, 500acres, 1000acres, 3000 acres, 50 000 acres?

Cheers Khakibob

Well the holes are there because I don't know what happens, I didn't know there were any regs or laws regarding private hunting preserves in NZ, so I have no idea what the size of the enclosure is supposed to be.

Canned hunt isn't even a legal term as far as I know.
In Africa its simply a general name given to a hunt that involves animals in an area specifically for the purpose of being hunted, and can cover a huge range of examples from a hand reared lion shot from a truck in a 100 hectare enclosure to animals raised by their mothers and running loose for several years in a 10,000 hectare or bigger enclosure.
There are recently introduced laws relating to hunting of lion, which have reduced, but not eliminated canned lion hunts.

Despite the antagonism towards canned hunting, I think it is actually preferable to hunting animals in the wild by far, and would support doing away with all wild hunts in Africa in favour of canned hunting only.

You mention both an Industry Body and a Govt Regulatory Body involved in inspecting and regulating private hunting in NZ.

As far as I know a farm deer is the same as a farm cow or sheep, and there is nothing to stop any farmer from inviting someone to shoot his deer on his property, even if he charges for it.
Or for that matter shoot wild deer on his property since they are regarded as noxious animals in NZ.

Please correct me if I am wrong however, and if you could answer the question I have put I'd appreciate it.

 

[tschandler71]

Chip needs a lesson in Economics. Especially concerning black markets and white markets. Canned Hunts are definitely a gray market imo. I don't think they are appropriate for my own hunting ethics but they do fill an economic niche. Canned Hunting isn't hunting IMO but it preferable to poaching or wild hunting in small populations. IE You have two male Zebras. One on a game reserve in Botswana, one on a ranch in Texas. For the average American its not only easier to go to Texas, but that zebra was bred and exists to be hunted. While if you shoot the Zebra in Botswana its probably a large pretty Alpha male. Once its gone, not only did you kill it but its harem will struggle without a new male apparent.

Chip you know what isn't endangered? The White-tail Deer. You want to know why? Because there is an incentive to manage and protect the herd. For lawful hunters and sportsmen to be able to manage the herd successfully. 100 years ago, Alabama's white tail herd was almost extinct now its plentiful.

 

[elefante]

Well the holes are there because I don't know what happens, I didn't know there were any regs or laws regarding private hunting preserves in NZ, so I have no idea what the size of the enclosure is supposed to be.

Canned hunt isn't even a legal term as far as I know.
In Africa its simply a general name given to a hunt that involves animals in an area specifically for the purpose of being hunted, and can cover a huge range of examples from a hand reared lion shot from a truck in a 100 hectare enclosure to animals raised by their mothers and running loose for several years in a 10,000 hectare or bigger enclosure.
There are recently introduced laws relating to hunting of lion, which have reduced, but not eliminated canned lion hunts.

Despite the antagonism towards canned hunting, I think it is actually preferable to hunting animals in the wild by far, and would support doing away with all wild hunts in Africa in favour of canned hunting only.

You mention both an Industry Body and a Govt Regulatory Body involved in inspecting and regulating private hunting in NZ.

As far as I know a farm deer is the same as a farm cow or sheep, and there is nothing to stop any farmer from inviting someone to shoot his deer on his property, even if he charges for it.
Or for that matter shoot wild deer on his property since they are regarded as noxious animals in NZ.

Please correct me if I am wrong however, and if you could answer the question I have put I'd appreciate it.

Can you explain your reasoning on the bolded section?

 

[kiwipo]

Can you explain your reasoning on the bolded section?

Yes, canned hunting involves the hunting of animals that are bred for no other purpose than being hunted. If it wasn't for the hunting those animals would never have been born.
So there is in Africa anyway a huge industry involved in the breeding, care for and hunting of these animals.
this is akin to breeding animals for the meat industry, a lot of people involved in farming and supplying these animals to the meat works.
The clients that hunt these animals pay big money to do so, and the money means an income for the literally thousands of people involved directly and indirectly with the industry..

Hunting in the wild of course means going out into the wild unfenced parts of Africa, and shooting wild animals.

As an example hunting of wild lions, the hunters will go out and shoot the biggest finest trophy male they can find.
Unfortunately for the wild lions this will be the pride male in his prime, who has survived cubhood, managed to learn to hunt and survive his nomad years after being driving out of the pride at age 2-3, and when fully grown is able to wrest control of a pride from the previous pride males. To do this he is almost always assisted by one or more fellow males who too are in their prime and good examples of big strong male lions.

So along comes the hunters keen on shooting lions in the wild, and they kill the big pride males.
This leaves the juvenile males, who would have been driven off by the pride males, free to stay in the pride, where they will mate with their mothers and sisters.
If they stay long enough to become males in their prime they too may be shot, leaving their offspring to mate again with their mothers and sisters.

So soon you will get inbreeding and genetic problems which given time will result in a population of puny inbred lions.

Hunters shooting in the wild cause similar problems amongst most species, nature is designed to weed out the puny and the weak, leaving the strong and healthy to breed.
Hunters shoot the strong and healthy, leaving the weak and puny.

Botswana used to allow hunting of lion on a large scale, and found this problem out the hard way. Now, even though their was mass protest by the likes of the National Rifle Association in the US, they heavily restrict all lion hunting, even lions on private game reserves.

I hope this somewhat lengthy reply answers your query.

 

[tschandler71]

kiwipo your observation is very much game theory as well as economics. Nice Job

 

[kiwipo]

kiwipo your observation is very much game theory as well as economics. Nice Job

I just noticed you made the same points as I did above my post.
I tried to make my explanation as simple as possible, but I have found in the past there are still plenty of people who just don't, or won't, understand it.

 

[chip]

Well, considering your steadfast refusal to even consider any other viewpoint, I think he's been remarkably restrained.



Hix

On the contrary, I consider everyones viewpoint, but I dont resort to slinging personal insults at anyone if I dont agree with them.

Please read all my posts and tell me when I have insulted anyone.

Remarkably restrained?
I dont understand you. Surely any forum is open to differing opinions?

[or are you saying its not allowed to disagree with anyone?]

 

[chip]

I just noticed you made the same points as I did above my post.
I tried to make my explanation as simple as possible, but I have found in the past there are still plenty of people who just don't, or won't, understand it.

I understand it fully.

The question is of course. Who is it, that decides what is the right or wrong action to take?

Maybe in 100 years we will applaud or condemn todays conservationists ?

Hopefully it will be to applaud the actions of todays conservationists and not look back like we do now to the dark days of the Victorian era, when they too,thought they where doing the right thing.

 

[Hix]

On the contrary, I consider everyones viewpoint, but I dont resort to slinging personal insults at anyone if I dont agree with them.

Please read all my posts and tell me when I have insulted anyone.

Read my post again. Then read it again. Then read it a third time.

Because that's your problem - you read a post, and if they disagree with you, you lump them together with everyone else who has disagreed with you and assume they all agree on the same points.

I posted one sentence, and in that sentence I never said you insulted anyone or even suggested anything of the sort.

Remarkably restrained?
I dont understand you. Surely any forum is open to differing opinions?

[or are you saying its not allowed to disagree with anyone?]

I said kiwipo was being restrained in his comments. Which he was.

And yes, this forum is open to differing opinions. But you initially had questions about conservation, others put forward their point of view, and you have just been argumentative about it. it hasn't been a discussion because you have a closed mind on the subject. Which tells me you didn't want to learn anything, you just wanted to argue. Agent provocateur.

Hix

 

[chip]

Read my post again. Then read it again. Then read it a third time.

Because that's your problem - you read a post, and if they disagree with you, you lump them together with everyone else who has disagreed with you and assume they all agree on the same points.

I posted one sentence, and in that sentence I never said you insulted anyone or even suggested anything of the sort.



I said kiwipo was being restrained in his comments. Which he was.

And yes, this forum is open to differing opinions. But you initially had questions about conservation, others put forward their point of view, and you have just been argumentative about it. it hasn't been a discussion because you have a closed mind on the subject. Which tells me you didn't want to learn anything, you just wanted to argue. Agent provocateur.

Hix[/QUOTE

Whatever.................

 

[kiwipo]

In reply to Hix,

If the best response CHIP can come up with is the childish "Whatever"

A word overused by young teenage girls throwing tantrums after being grounded or having cell phones confiscated, then it's really a waste of time debating with him.
He's obviously strongly opinionated and unwavering in his views, although his most recent posts are just garbled nonsense.

From now on I'll just ignore him, I have doubts that he is as old as he claims, as he carries on like a school kid.

 

[jbnbsn99]

Chip, I've warned you once to keep it civil.

 

[khakibob]

I have no idea.

You mention both an Industry Body and a Govt Regulatory Body involved in inspecting and regulating private hunting in NZ.

As far as I know a farm deer is the same as a farm cow or sheep, and there is nothing to stop any farmer from inviting someone to shoot his deer on his property, even if he charges for it.
Or for that matter shoot wild deer on his property since they are regarded as noxious animals in NZ.

Please correct me if I am wrong however, and if you could answer the question I have put I'd appreciate it.

Not exactly true,however a little bit of knowledge can be sometimes be more trouble than none.

The NZ Professional Hunting Guides Association & then another regulating just the activities if Hunting Estates, including licences & inspections are two of the Industry regulatory bodies with codes of practice in NZ concerning game reserves."The Game Animal Council" is the government regulatory body concerning all hunting licences in NZ,again with codes of practice for the ethical & humane treatment of animals.This was modeled on the "Game Council" in Aust.

Deer are recognised as game animals not noxious animals in NZ,this is the law. If they have owners & are consided "stock" ,obviously the owners can sell, trade, kill one for human consumption,etc,however as soon as they are "hunted" they become a "game" animal.

Cheers Khakibob

 

[kiwipo]

Not exactly true,however a little bit of knowledge can be sometimes be more trouble than none.

The & then another regulating just the activities if Hunting Estates, including licences & inspections are two of the Industry regulatory bodies with codes of practice in NZ concerning game reserves."The Game Animal Council" is the government regulatory body concerning all hunting licences in NZ,again with codes of practice for the ethical & humane treatment of animals.This was modeled on the "Game Council" in Aust.

Deer are recognised as game animals not noxious animals in NZ,this is the law. If they have owners & are consided "stock" ,obviously the owners can sell, trade, kill one for human consumption,etc,however as soon as they are "hunted" they become a "game" animal.

Cheers Khakibob

Thanks for that info, there are certainly some items there I didn't know about

The Game Animal Council I see is not yet law in NZ, its still going through Parliament, with the next date for a report due in September of this year.
As yet I can't see where they have any defined regulatory powers or authority, so I suppose that has yet to be decided on.

NZ Professional Hunting Guides Association INC. is a group for registered licensed hunting guides, and therefore I would think the rules and regs only apply to their members. They certainly have no powers or authority over non members.
There are quite a number of people who charge clients for hunting trips whose names I don't see on the member list of that organisation, so they certainly don't represent all professional hunting guides in NZ.

Deer are not an official game animal in NZ, there is no deer season or restriction on hunting them by law.
They are classed as a noxious animal under NZ law, and can therefore be destroyed by anyone by shooting, trapping or even poisoning.
the only type of legal control re deer involves property and location, where restrictions on hunting may apply.
However any land owner can shoot any deer on his own property, and govt agencies such as DOC can shoot any deer not confined behind a deer fence on any property.
I wasn't completely sure about this after reading your post, I thought maybe there had been some changes, so I rang the local DOC ranger, who is himself a keen hunter, and asked him.
Now while I would think he knows what he is talking about, if you have any links to prove that NZ deer are officially a protected game animal in the same way as some fish and birds are, then please let me know.
I'd be most interested in having a look at it.
As you say, its always best to have the facts first.

 

[chip]

Chip, I've warned you once to keep it civil.

Please accept my apologies


In the interests of civility, I would like to point out that I have no objections to Zoos and collections who are genuine conservationists.

Its zoos and private collections not involved in conservation and the "anyone can shoot for fun outfits" that I dont agree with.

My concern is only with the well being of animals, and if are culled, its done by trained marksmen,either for control or the table, but not just for a rug.

 

[Monty]

Please accept my apologies


In the interests of civility, I would like to point out that I have no objections to Zoos and collections who are genuine conservationists.

Its zoos and private collections not involved in conservation and the "anyone can shoot for fun outfits" that I dont agree with.

My concern is only with the well being of animals, and if are culled, its done by trained marksmen,either for control or the table, but not just for a rug.

How can people with private collections afford to have healthy breeding populations without an income. The highest income earner which also removes older males is shooting reserves.

Somebody has to pay for conservation, why not let shooters do it.

Trained marksmen is a term thrown around often. These are just people who are paid, it does not mean they are more accurate. Part of the guides job is to have the client test the accuracy of his gun, but they are more importantly checking the shooting ability of the client. If they doubt the ability of the client they need to make the shot easier, by getting closer to the animal.

Are you also concerned about the well being of animals in the wild. Their deaths are not humane and wild animals do not die peacefully like on Disney. The only animals which have humane deaths are those killed by humans.

 

[kiwipo]

How can people with private collections afford to have healthy breeding populations without an income. The highest income earner which also removes older males is shooting reserves.

Somebody has to pay for conservation, why not let shooters do it.

Trained marksmen is a term thrown around often. These are just people who are paid, it does not mean they are more accurate. Part of the guides job is to have the client test the accuracy of his gun, but they are more importantly checking the shooting ability of the client. If they doubt the ability of the client they need to make the shot easier, by getting closer to the animal.

Are you also concerned about the well being of animals in the wild. Their deaths are not humane and wild animals do not die peacefully like on Disney. The only animals which have humane deaths are those killed by humans.

A lot of people have this dreamlike notion of animals in the wild, where freedom is valued above all else, and wild animals are happy contented animals.

Using a lion as an example, if he survives cub hood in the wild, and doesn't die of starvation, getting lost, killed by hyenas or male lions taking over the pride as most of his sibling will be, he will be kicked out of the pride around 2-3 years of age.

then he must learn to hunt, or he will starve, and any male lion fidning him will do their best to kill him.

If he is lucky he will become a hunter, and meet up with some other males, and in a few years when they are at their prime they can attempt to take over a pride. If they are lucky they will do it with no bloodshed, if not they will be injured, possibly seriously, and even killed.

But if they are successful in taking over the pride they will have some stroppy lionesses to subdue as the girls object to their cubs being killed.
Once that is out of the way, they can settle down to mating with the lionesses and robbing them of their kills.

There problems are not over of course, as other males will be trying ot oust them, and they have the usual risks of being injured by the big game they are hunting.

After a few years they will be past their prime, and other males will kick them out. If they are lucky they will be killed during this oust, if not they are run off, often injured, to become nomads again, and will have t hunt until they get too old to chase game.

then its a slow death by starvation, unless hyenas finish them off first.


Compare that with a zoo lion, from cubs they are looked after, even hand reared if their mother can't do it. They are always fed, and any injuries or sicknesses are treated by keepers and vets.
They are usually separated from lions who might do them harm, and all they have to do is sleep and eat which suits them fine.
Eventually they will die of old age, which is far older in captivity than any wild lion lives to.

Few animals in the wild die of old age, most of them die quite nasty deaths.

 

[Javan Rhino]

Whilst I'm not a fan of 'green hunting' as it's sometimes named, I can't disagree with it on paper. There are just too many pros to it.

You have captive animals that need culling - you can either pay a marksman to do it, do it yourself or make a good sum of money that can be put back into conservation by letting somebody pay to hunt.

These animals were going to die in the name of population management no matter what, so why not take the money for it, money that can go into a vast amount of conservation projects?

Also, if parks didn't allow this, then would that stop hunters? Or would hunters then go out and kill wild, possibly genetically important animals? Hunting wild animals is worse in my opinion as that has negative impacts on conservation, and I think if green hunting was abolished people would just hunt wild, as opposed to stopping hunting.

 

[elefante]

Whilst I'm not a fan of 'green hunting' as it's sometimes named, I can't disagree with it on paper. There are just too many pros to it.

You have captive animals that need culling - you can either pay a marksman to do it, do it yourself or make a good sum of money that can be put back into conservation by letting somebody pay to hunt.

These animals were going to die in the name of population management no matter what, so why not take the money for it, money that can go into a vast amount of conservation projects?

Also, if parks didn't allow this, then would that stop hunters? Or would hunters then go out and kill wild, possibly genetically important animals? Hunting wild animals is worse in my opinion as that has negative impacts on conservation, and I think if green hunting was abolished people would just hunt wild, as opposed to stopping hunting.

What does green hunting mean? Hunting wild animals has benefits. In places like the Midwestern US whitetailed deer are very overpopulated and there are no predators.