Pros and cons of animals in captivity

chip said:
Zooplantman.

You could say my goal was to try and understand the mindsets of people who pay to kill animals for personal satisfaction, knowing that the money they have paid,in many instances, doesnt help conservation.


What goes on in the head of someone who wants to kill a Giraffe,Elephant or Hippo and poses for a picture with it?

What is the woman thinking who`s picture I see, triumphant after killing a Zebra in U.S.A ?

I am interested to know what people think after they have killed an animal for any reason other than to eat it, or stop it killing stock, or stop it killing themselves?

Would they, for instance, shoot a Black Labrador for the same reason [whatever the reason is]?
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kiwipo has confirmed what I assumed was the situation regarding permits controlling the killing in Botswana ? or the neighbouring Countries as well?

I wonder if the system is policed?

Do these Countries contributed to animal conservation?
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I maybe misunderstood the post by tschandler71 suggesting an Alpha male Zebra could be killed in Africa,I still dont understand if this is the case or not.

The U.S.A. base hunting factory outlets [for the want of a better name].
Dont appear to support conservation, please correct me if I am wrong,

tschandler71, the purpose of my post was not "to cause a ruckus".
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It would be impossible to explain to you what goes through the heads of hunters when they shoot something, because they are enthusiastic hunters who enjoy the hunt.

it would be equally fruitless to explain the exhilaration a golf player gets from making a below par round unless you are into golf.

I sure as hell cannot understand how anyone can get excited watching a cricket test match, and to sit watching a game live from the stands would be my idea of hell.

But I accept some people do love cricket and can watch it all day with enthusiasm, even though to my way of looking at it one could look at it all day and they wouldn't move much.

Policing hunting permits in Africa,
No, they aren't policed all that effectively, policing of game reserves, hunting and associated activities rely mainly on self regulation, but in general those in the industry do tow the line.

There are lots of short cuts taken, particularly in the canned hunting operations.

New rules for example say a lion must have been wild ranging in an enclosure of a determines minimum size for a set period before being hunted. However how is anyone to know that the lion being hunted is the same lion that has been running free all year.

It is an unfortunate fact in Southern Africa that a lot of people employed to protect animals, vets, game wardens, police, are involved in poaching animals, particularly rhinos at present.
I have surprised police poaching, and what is one to do when catching several armed police loading an impala into their car after hearing shots fired? Well the answer is greet them with a friendly smile and drive on.

As for killing an alpha male Zebra in Africa, given enough money almost anything can be killed in Africa.


And re your query if the US based hunting factory outlets support conservation.

I doubt it, they are only interested in making a profit for themselves, I'd be surprised if they contributed anything to conservation apart from keeping a few hunters from shooting animals in the wild

Im referring to dollar contributions only, As Tschandler below points out, hunting operations do contribute a lot to conservation in the way of actual animals, and often land. Hunters don't want animals to die out any more than animal lovers do.

But all animals are on earth these days to serve humans, some people don't like that but it is a face. If animals in the wild didn't have a direct or indirect use that exceeded the benefits of wiping them out they wouldn't be here.

And being of use to humans in any way is the most important conservation value any animal can have. Many countries can't afford to protect animals just for the sake of protection.
 
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tschandler71 said:
The Texas Hunting Industry is pretty much responsible for the amount of Scimitar Oryx out there.
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I don't doubt that, and it would be the case with some other species as well.

Its only because of hunting that much of the land occupied by African game exists today.

Africa's population is bulging, and land is desperately wanted for housing and subsistence farming.

Kenya for example when first colonised had only a couple of million residents, now they have about 43 million, which is five million more than in 2009.
With that sort of population growth there isn't much room left for animals and therer are already cries to build more houses on the reserves near Nairobi.

Hunting paid for 70,000 hectares my family and close neighbours own and turned into a game reserve. The hunting gave them an income, and an income for the staff, both white and black, who work and live there.
hunting paid for the machinery, the equipment, the fences, the power, the camps and the animals themselves.

Now that most of it has been paid for hunting can be reduced by a large amount, and tourism and breeding which doesn't earn as much money can take it's place.

If for example there had been no hunting allowed in the area, the entire reserve would be covered houses and huts, dirt roads, small farm plots and thousands of people, and there would simply be no animals.

Anyone who has driven in southern Africa outside the cities and game reserves will know exactly what I mean.

As Zimbabwe is demonstrating today subsistence farming brings in nothing to the economy, since they have kicked out all of the farmers who were producing for export there only earner now is tourism, but their wild animals have been poached so heavily for food there isn't a lot for the wild life keen tourists to see.
 
chip said:
Well on the 29th February, nanoboy posted the following........

Folks, let's keep the emotions in check, and not bite each other's heads off - no pun intended.

To the hunters out there, why do you do it? You aren't hunter gatherers, so you surely don't need the food. So what am I missing? What's the thrill in killing an animal for sport?

(I am not trying to be self-righteous - I am just trying to understand.)


Why did not you suggest an alternative forum then?
Actually this thread was instigated by kiwipo and chlidonias from the "Elephant Kills Keeper" thread.

Thanks for the suggestions of hunter forums, but will leave them to the hunters. My interest is in live animals not dead ones.
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Nanoboy specifically asked for comments from the few hunters on here - and the title of his thread reflected the content. Nanoboy is also savvy enough to go and ask on another forum if he couldn't get the answers he wanted here. And he was listening to their responses.

You, on the other hand, started off in a thread about an elephant killing a zookeeper. You were deriding conservation because of a few examples where animals were not reintroduced to the wild but were mistreated (like China) or in hunting ranches. Trying to explain how conservation works fell on your deaf ears because you were focused on shooting zebras.

chip said:
My interest is in live animals not dead ones
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From what I've read, your interest is in dead or soon to be dead animals.

I call "shenanigans" on chip.

Hix
 
Hix said:
Nanoboy specifically asked for comments from the few hunters on here - and the title of his thread reflected the content. Nanoboy is also savvy enough to go and ask on another forum if he couldn't get the answers he wanted here. And he was listening to their responses.

You, on the other hand, started off in a thread about an elephant killing a zookeeper. You were deriding conservation because of a few examples where animals were not reintroduced to the wild but were mistreated (like China) or in hunting ranches. Trying to explain how conservation works fell on your deaf ears because you were focused on shooting zebras.



From what I've read, your interest is in dead or soon to be dead animals.

I call "shenanigans" on chip.

Hix
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Hix,
My questions have been answered by someone who knows.

You can give the goading a rest now........bye bye
 
and on it goes!
whoever wants to kill animals has to live with the thought of what they did.
 
MaraM said:
I cannot condone the hunting and killing of any animal - even to raise money for "conservation".
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chip said:
whoever wants to kill animals has to live with the thought of what they did.
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Maybe you are right. But should I remember mosquitoes which were killed yesterday by me till I die?
And why do you talk about animals only? I like bread very much. Should I be scared when I think how many grains died for a single loaf of bread?
 
callorhinus said:
Maybe you are right. But should I remember mosquitoes which were killed yesterday by me till I die?
And why do you talk about animals only? I like bread very much. Should I be scared when I think how many grains died for a single loaf of bread?
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mosquitoes are not animals.!

The bread in Russia will probably kill you soon!:eek:
 
callorhinus said:
Hmmm... What does word "animal" mean then?



Life is a big trouble with no chances to escape alive. Something will kill us earlier or later. :)
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ok, call it an animal if it pleases you!
I personally, dont kill anything, dont eat meat fish or anything like that, I live on pills.
 
MaraM said:
I cannot condone the hunting and killing of any animal - even to raise money for "conservation".
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What if it IS conservation?
Your animal rights,protectionist view could be one of the greatest hurdles for conservationists into the future.

A species could become so overabundent,it damages its own habitat & lowers the carrying capacity,or an introduced species becomes a threat or part of a threatening process to other species.Hunting these animals humainly is often required & a skill which seems to be not well understood by those disconnected from nature.

I'll be doing some "conservation" with over abundent deer this week.

Unlike when kangaroos are culled with "drop tags" these deer can & will be taken & utilised rather than left to feed feral dogs,foxes,etc.

I'll be able to live with that, & look forward to some venison.

Cheers Khakibob
 
chip said:
ok, call it an animal if it pleases you!
I personally, dont kill anything, dont eat meat fish or anything like that, I live on pills.
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Doesn't matter if it pleases me or not. Mosquitoes are animals, and I really did want to kill them though it was not hunt.
I doubt most people can be vegetarians because we all live in different conditions (I think Inuit will not like your proposal). It means for me that I should spent four times more money for food. Not good idea.

As for bread or something like that. From the point of view of biologist/ecologist eating bread is much worse than killing and eating deer:
When you kill deer you kill only specimen/individual intentionally. When you making bread you should remember that many grains (each one is individual!) and many yeasts die for it.
This deer had offspring very likely while grains had no chance.

khakibob just told about conservation. In this case to kill deer means death for one animal but profit for population. So - to kill or not to kill? To care for one animal - or for all of them?

Do you remember the thread "What's the thrill of hunting?"? So I'm trying here to understand the point of such your attitude to animals (mostly mammals and birds?). You have not "ecological" point of view definitely.
So you probably have popular/common/everyday/traditional point of view. But don't forget that we are all live in different conditions with different lifestyle, that we have very different traditions. Many people think at this point that it's "bad" to kill animals but most didn't, and it's useless to impose other views (we have proverb: Satiated man can't understand hungry man). Tempora mutantur, and 50 years later most people will be agree with you maybe. But not now.

I think we should proceed conversation in the thread "What's the thrill of hunting?" if you want.
 
Some interesting comments.

I cannot condone the hunting and killing of any animal - even to raise money for "conservation".
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What about the animals killed so your fruits and vegetables can be produced. Productive monocultures require a lot of killing to maintain.

whoever wants to kill animals has to live with the thought of what they did.
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I am happy with that, and many people are happy to not know how many animals have to be killed to produce their vegetables.
 
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