Melbourne Zoo Ramalo moves

[jay]

I wasn't sure if this should be tagged as Melbourne or Australia Zoo.
Whoa mate, if looks could kill ... | Herald Sun
Ramalon the sumatran tiger, who has already fathered two litters of cubs, and both of his brothers having already bred as well, is being sent to Australia Zoo to breed with their two females! You know the wild born ones. This is exactly what I feared, that the completly unrelated line represented by these three animals would be subsummed into the Nico/Meta line. I don't understand it at all. If there is anyone on this board who can explain this decision please do.
If they wanted to continue this line why didn't they at least use Satu, Ramalons four year old son. Or the sons of Ramalons brother, Lari, Juma or Ranu, both of whom are already at Australia Zoo.
I don''t understand this because the article mentions that Ramalon is valuable genetically - that is hogwash as hsi genes are well represented all over Australia and New Zealand.

Just a thought that has occured to me, perhaps Melbourne zoo simply wanted to get rid of Ramalon and they pushed for him to be sent to Australia Zoo.

 

[Jabiru96]

I wasn't sure if this should be tagged as Melbourne or Australia Zoo.
Whoa mate, if looks could kill ... | Herald Sun
Ramalon the sumatran tiger, who has already fathered two litters of cubs, and both of his brothers having already bred as well, is being sent to Australia Zoo to breed with their two females! You know the wild born ones. This is exactly what I feared, that the completly unrelated line represented by these three animals would be subsummed into the Nico/Meta line. I don't understand it at all. If there is anyone on this board who can explain this decision please do.
If they wanted to continue this line why didn't they at least use Satu, Ramalons four year old son. Or the sons of Ramalons brother, Lari, Juma or Ranu, both of whom are already at Australia Zoo.
I don''t understand this because the article mentions that Ramalon is valuable genetically - that is hogwash as hsi genes are well represented all over Australia and New Zealand.

Just a thought that has occured to me, perhaps Melbourne zoo simply wanted to get rid of Ramalon and they pushed for him to be sent to Australia Zoo.

No!No!No! This cannot happen, and is a poor decision by both Melbourne and Australia Zoo.

The Indonesian cubs could be very valuable pairings with other unrepresented lines (eg Oz at Auckland) and could have started a whole new line. I feel now that Australia Zoo isn't even thinking on how to preserve this species in the region in a healthily-managed and pure way. We have way too many represented lines here in Australia (that also exist overseas mind you) and we simply do not need any more.

I think it was also a poor decision that Melbourne bred Ramalon with another unrepresented tiger, Binjai, and hopefully he will move up to Australia Zoo but not breed, or be castrated. A mention is also shouted out to Taronga. I love the place, the animals, the keepers, everything about it (it is of course my home zoo), but I still don't know why they are planning to breed (again and unrepresented and fresh bloodline) Satu with Jumilah (who is practically in the same league as Ramalon and his offspring at Melbourne, as well as his brother Lari at Mogo and his cubs at Australia Zoo). I can understand Jumilah's mother Assiqua has no other offspring (unless I am mistaken) but her father Juara is too over represented and is no worth in this program, therefore she isn't as well. Why not simply breed Satu with one of the Australia Zoo Indonesian cubs?

BTW, that is the most times I have said represented, bloodline and breed in the same text!

 

[Jabiru96]

If they wanted to continue this line why didn't they at least use Satu, Ramalons four year old son.

I thought Satu was the son of Tuan at Adelaide, who was imported along with Satu a few years ago?

EDIT: After further investigation, there appears to be two tigers named Satu, and both in the Taronga collections (Ramalon's Satu at WPZ and Tuan's Satu at Taronga). This just adds to the confusion lol

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Why does Australia Zoo sit on theirs without breeding the new bloodlines?
What does it give the region in terms of Sumatrans in exchange?

 

[Jarkari]

Satu at WPZ was originally destined to be bred with also at WPZ. They have sone of the best facilities for this around purpose built for breeding, yet in 34 years they have never been asked to breed. I am very doubtful Australia Zoo will breed successfully with the Indonesian cubs. If they are successful they will probably be pulled and handraised. Hand raised sumatrans are notoriously hard to breed.

 

[peacock]

Since there is such a limited gene pool within the entire global captive population of Sumatran tigers (I believe even Ramalon and Binjai were somewhat related) isn't it wise to NOT mix two valuable new genetic lines together?

I was under the impression that the "Indonesian" Sumatrans at AZ were littermates for one, but even if they are not, surely whats wiser is to mix them in with existing australian tiger stock to preserve as much diversity as possible rather than breed them to eachother, which would only instantly dissolve two valuable lines into one. The idea with CBP's is to spread out the diversity and slow the inevitable inbreeding as much as possible. Thus, I see no sense in breeding new bloodlines together.

 

[jay]

Since there is such a limited gene pool within the entire global captive population of Sumatran tigers (I believe even Ramalon and Binjai were somewhat related) isn't it wise to NOT mix two valuable new genetic lines together?

I was under the impression that the "Indonesian" Sumatrans at AZ were littermates for one, but even if they are not, surely whats wiser is to mix them in with existing australian tiger stock to preserve as much diversity as possible rather than breed them to eachother, which would only instantly dissolve two valuable lines into one. The idea with CBP's is to spread out the diversity and slow the inevitable inbreeding as much as possible. Thus, I see no sense in breeding new bloodlines together.

Peacock are you refering to Satu, son of Tuan as the second new bloodline? The two females from Indonesia are sisters. My concern is that they will both be mated with Ramalon, an already overrepresented animal.

 

[Turkana]

As with all managed species in the ASMP, generally, institutes follow the recommendations of the species coordinator. So the decision to breed (and therefore move) Ramalon would not of been AZ or MZ’s.
Obliviously there are exceptions, where institutes plough ahead with their own agenda......Let me think of an example.......oh I got one: bringing in the only two individuals of a species into the region, say, like a pair of Greater One Horned Rhinos.

Kifaru Bwana......As has been stated before, the new bloodlines that AZ “sit on” are less than three and a half years of age and still too young to breed!

Jarkari ......I too keep hearing this “hand reared Sumatran tigers are notoriously hard to breed” , well I will be honest........only from you every time the topic of tigers and AZ comes up......Could you share your reliable / respected sources?? I used to hear how much harder Sumatrans were to interact with compared to other tigers, and Dreamworld and AZ have debunked that one!

With the only true “unrepresented” bloodline in the entire captive program (there are equals in Japan), AZ should really breed the siblings together........this would maximise and extend gene diversity for the program.......and whilst a lot of you will jump up and down about inbreeding, the mean kinship of these offspring would still be lower than many already existing individuals in the program!!

And one final note..... don’t get so wrapped up in what a journalist reports.......

 

[Axl]

This makes me quite very angry

The species coordinator has really outdone himself this time!

I was amazed that both Ramalon and Larry were bred from again in 2010 when there are tigers like Oz, Raja, Tuan and Satu 1 going to waste! Any one of these tigers would be a good match for the Australia females.

To Jay - your comments about Ramalon's genes being overrepresented are absolutely right. Not only were his parents Shiva and Seletan related as first cousins but their offspring have been bred to produce a total of 15 surviving cubs! I would call that being overrepresented!

And yes, if there really was a need to breed Ramalon's family with one of the females at Australia Zoo then choose one that hasn't bred and isn't sixteen years of age eg. Satu 2 or the Ramalon's two nephews at Australia Zoo but personally I wouldn't recommend this.

 

[peacock]

Peacock are you refering to Satu, son of Tuan as the second new bloodline? The two females from Indonesia are sisters. My concern is that they will both be mated with Ramalon, an already overrepresented animal.

No, i wasn't talking about Satu. To explain I take as fact your comment that of the three animals imported by AZ two are siblings and thus the third (the male) must be unrelated. So of the three animals imported we have 2 distinct bloodlines.

So my point was that rather than mix these two imported bloodlines together as is being suggested, Isn't it actually wiser to mix them separately into the genepool of existing lines to reinvigorate them? If they were to breed the male imported tiger to one of the females - all they would be succeeding in doing was instantly making one new bloodline from two - a bit of a waste as far as diversity goes. To get the most from your buck so to speak, I would have thought it wiser to take two bloodlines that are already common in the program - such as Ramalons and re-invigorate it with an injection of new genes. Remember studbooks are there to manage the inevitable increases of inbreeding amongst a small population and slow it as much as possible. The other ways zoos do this is to halt breeding for as long as possible, to slow the generational turnover, avoid gridlocked populations (with no space) and put off inbreeding for as long as possible. Even if we had a limitless amount of spaces for tigers in zoos, breeding animals as soon as possible would only end up speeding the generational process and running out of unrelated pairings sooner.

So I can't really understand why everyone is champing at the bit for AZ to breed their valuable tigers as soon as they become sexually mature (which is by my knowledge not for at least another year!)

I'm sure the species co-ordinator has a reason for recommending this pairing. And like Turkana said - we all know journalists frequently get it wrong. If we took what they said as fact Taronga probably just had its third african elephant birth. Ramalon may be heading to AZ partially to free up space at Melbourne, who currently have 5 tigers and need the space.

 

[peacock]

Obliviously there are exceptions, where institutes plough ahead with their own agenda......Let me think of an example.......oh I got one: bringing in the only two individuals of a species into the region, say, like a pair of Greater One Horned Rhinos.

This sure got up a few noses didn't it?!!

I don't really see a problem with it, since WPZ already living up to their obligations to white rhinos (the priority species) and was at this stage also running a program for blacks all by themselves. If they had imported Indians without ever having held white rhino it would be a different story. But they already were one additional species beyond the taxon that was recommended. So it makes no sense to criticise them.

Its about as fair as stating "why did Taronga import francois' langurs when they could have imported more gorillas?"

 

[Jarkari]

As with all managed species in the ASMP, generally, institutes follow the recommendations of the species coordinator. So the decision to breed (and therefore move) Ramalon would not of been AZ or MZ’s.
Obliviously there are exceptions, where institutes plough ahead with their own agenda......Let me think of an example.......oh I got one: bringing in the only two individuals of a species into the region, say, like a pair of Greater One Horned Rhinos.

Kifaru Bwana......As has been stated before, the new bloodlines that AZ “sit on” are less than three and a half years of age and still too young to breed!

Jarkari ......I too keep hearing this “hand reared Sumatran tigers are notoriously hard to breed” , well I will be honest........only from you every time the topic of tigers and AZ comes up......Could you share your reliable / respected sources?? I used to hear how much harder Sumatrans were to interact with compared to other tigers, and Dreamworld and AZ have debunked that one!

With the only true “unrepresented” bloodline in the entire captive program (there are equals in Japan), AZ should really breed the siblings together........this would maximise and extend gene diversity for the program.......and whilst a lot of you will jump up and down about inbreeding, the mean kinship of these offspring would still be lower than many already existing individuals in the program!!

And one final note..... don’t get so wrapped up in what a journalist reports.......

I think you'll find my comments aren't always directed at Australia Zoo if you actually pay attention to them. Dreamworld also comes up. I have the highest respect for Dreamworld and what they do. I have been led to believe what I have said by a keeper who cares for a number of sumatran tigers, including a handraised one.

As for the GOHR at Dubbo. Seriously. get over it. I don't believe they went against recommendations as the rhino weren't previously managed here, therefore no recommendations to go against, very different. Dubbo know what they are doing with rhino. That's why they imported. There are currently 25 rhino there. It has been said for a long time that they plan on importing a second pair in the future and the zoo has room for it. You can't argue their success with black rhino so why shouldn't they try at indians.

 

[peacock]

Personally, I find it a unlikely that a different subspecies of the same species would be that different behaviourally that one could actually claim a specific race "harder to tame". Any differences I would put down do individuals and coincidence.

 

[Turkana]

Bit of a sore point these One horned Rhinos............I think you’ll find that they were not recommended......but I don’t really have a issue with that; my real point is how the “establishment” zoos stand on their soap boxes with the slogan “do as we say, not as we do”.

 

[Jabiru96]

Obliviously there are exceptions, where institutes plough ahead with their own agenda......Let me think of an example.......oh I got one: bringing in the only two individuals of a species into the region, say, like a pair of Greater One Horned Rhinos.

Now come on. You can't deem a breeding program as a failure if it has not started running properly yet (the female is still too young) and it only started around 5 years ago. Also, compared to say white or black rhinos, Indian rhinos are rarer in captivity so harder to acquire, so this breeding program will need to focus on the availability of the animals while still managing the bloodlines and ancestral information. As said previously on this forum, Dubbo look to and aim to acquire 2 pairs that are compatible, which means some animals might not be able to be paired or breed, a further obstacle in a program for a species so endangered and not that common in captivity.

 

[Turkana]

I don’t seemed to of made my point clear; I was not even suggesting that the breeding program of the one horned rhinos was a failure!!!
As I am sure you all would know, to have CITES 1 species in Australia, you need to demonstrate that that you are partaking in a cooperative captive breeding program (with one or two exceptions); so obviously if you have the only pair in the region, you need to be linked to another region’s program........Flying Rhinos around the world is very expensive, surely resources could be used more wisely. Very few other institutes within Aus / NZ have the resources to take another species of rhino.
But the point I am really trying to make is that the larger (often state run) zoos, do as they please, whilst preaching to others about the correct way to go about business! And quite often use their position etc to influence what’s best for their particular institute, not the breeding program/s or even the individual animal; example......Taronga pushing for tigers to breed at Sydney rather than Dubbo, when clearly the much better facilities are at Dubbo!

 

[Turkana]

sorry......two pairs!!
need to have over 20 spaces / individuals to maintain a breeding program within Australia.....Hats off to TWPZ if they are committing that many to the One horned Rhino!

 

[Jabiru96]

sorry......two pairs!!
need to have over 20 spaces / individuals to maintain a breeding program within Australia.....Hats off to TWPZ if they are committing that many to the One horned Rhino!

I think most zoos around the world would love two pairs. The only zoos I know with quite a few animals are Whipsnade and San Diego Wild Animal Park, and they (at least Whipsnade has) have kept and maintained this species with success for a number of years. Greater one horned rhinos are not that easy to acquire you realise?

And this time I actually think they will stick to this program unlike Taronga with dholes, but that is a whole other story. Now lets get back onto the topic of Ramalon moving shall we.......

 

[peacock]

But the point I am really trying to make is that the larger (often state run) zoos, do as they please, whilst preaching to others about the correct way to go about business! And quite often use their position etc to influence what’s best for their particular institute, not the breeding program/s or even the individual animal; example......Taronga pushing for tigers to breed at Sydney rather than Dubbo, when clearly the much better facilities are at Dubbo!

Bad example though. Taronga built Dubbo. Dubbo is also a state run zoo. And without Taronga subsidising it, Dubbo wouldn't exist. And we all know why they choose to breed tigers at Taronga - to make money. Money needed to keep Dubbo (which is in the middle of nowhere) alive and running.

I haven't been to Dubbo (I would love to), but I considering how little I think of Taronga, I'm sure its safe to assume which zoo I'd like more. But thats beside the point. Taronga can do just about whatever it likes with Dubbo - because it owns it. Dubbo is a part of Taronga.

But if you would like to give another example, say of a State run zoo bullying a private one - I'd love to hear...

 

[jay]

No, i wasn't talking about Satu. To explain I take as fact your comment that of the three animals imported by AZ two are siblings and thus the third (the male) must be unrelated. So of the three animals imported we have 2 distinct bloodlines. .

I see that Ihgave made a bit of confusion, There is only ine new bloodline as the three animals are siblings.

So my point was that rather than mix these two imported bloodlines together as is being suggested, Isn't it actually wiser to mix them separately into the genepool of existing lines to reinvigorate them? If they were to breed the male imported tiger to one of the females - all they would be succeeding in doing was instantly making one new bloodline from two - a bit of a waste as far as diversity goes. To get the most from your buck so to speak, I would have thought it wiser to take two bloodlines that are already common in the program - such as Ramalons and re-invigorate it with an injection of new genes. Remember studbooks are there to manage the inevitable increases of inbreeding amongst a small population and slow it as much as possible. The other ways zoos do this is to halt breeding for as long as possible, to slow the generational turnover, avoid gridlocked populations (with no space) and put off inbreeding for as long as possible. Even if we had a limitless amount of spaces for tigers in zoos, breeding animals as soon as possible would only end up speeding the generational process and running out of unrelated pairings sooner..

I agree completely with your arguement here, what concerns me is if the entire new bloodline gets subsumed intot he existing Meta/Nica line. One of the three bred with this line is fine and needed but the others should be mated with animals from other bloodlines so that the new bloodline doesn't het lost completley in the N/M line. That is what happened with the ctwo cubs of Frank and Poetry. They have no descendants tha arent also descendants of Nico/Meta so that line has to all intentions been lost.

So I can't really understand why everyone is champing at the bit for AZ to breed their valuable tigers as soon as they become sexually mature (which is by my knowledge not for at least another year!)..

The only problem with this is that you run the risk of losing a valuable animal before it has bredm as happened at Auckland.

I'm sure the species co-ordinator has a reason for recommending this pairing. . Ramalon may be heading to AZ partially to free up space at Melbourne, who currently have 5 tigers and need the space.

I was hoping that someone may be able to fill us in.