Rarest animals seen in a zoo or aquarium

ThylacineAlive said:
Explain.

~Thylo:cool:
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They still haven't demonstrated on a genetic level any difference between Canis Rufus and Canis Latrans. They are mainly going off traditional phenotype classification. Probably instead of Red Wolf, Timber Wolf, Coyote, or Eastern Wolf we should classify them all as simply American Jackal. The real reason for keeping the incorrect notion of a red wolf around is to keep certain habitats of their's protected. If they ever give up the ghost and admit that if there were ever distinct Canis Rufus then they are definitely not around now then those habitats would then lose their entire justification for being protected areas. Environmental politics not science determine the future of the Red Wolf.
 
tschandler71 said:
They still haven't demonstrated on a genetic level any difference between Canis Rufus and Canis Latrans. They are mainly going off traditional phenotype classification. Probably instead of Red Wolf, Timber Wolf, Coyote, or Eastern Wolf we should classify them all as simply American Jackal. The real reason for keeping the incorrect notion of a red wolf around is to keep certain habitats of their's protected. If they ever give up the ghost and admit that if there were ever distinct Canis Rufus then they are definitely not around now then those habitats would then lose their entire justification for being protected areas. Environmental politics not science determine the future of the Red Wolf.
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While I agree it's an unresolved species complex (possibly incipient speciation event), I wouldn't say the notion of a Red Wolf is 'incorrect'. It's unproven, and if there's any serious doubt at all we ought to be protecting them separately if we can. Every time I read the latest on this it's a different verdict (last time it was the 'four species' solution, the time before it was lumping everything in North America except latrans) so I'd say for the forseeable the jury will remain out on this one.

And if the effect of all this is to at worst maintain genetic diversity within whatever North American Canis we eventually end up with and ensure the protection of more areas for wildlife for a few more years then there are far worse ways to spend conservation cash.
 
Ok e-mail sent to parque zoologico municipal quinzinho de barros, now just awaiting answer. half past nine here in scotland, so I might go to bed now, so will hopefully recieve answer in the morning.

In my e-mail I asked if the zoo held them, or If they new of any other zoos that held them.:cool:
 
Maguari said:
While I agree it's an unresolved species complex (possibly incipient speciation event), I wouldn't say the notion of a Red Wolf is 'incorrect'. It's unproven, and if there's any serious doubt at all we ought to be protecting them separately if we can. Every time I read the latest on this it's a different verdict (last time it was the 'four species' solution, the time before it was lumping everything in North America except latrans) so I'd say for the forseeable the jury will remain out on this one.

And if the effect of all this is to at worst maintain genetic diversity within whatever North American Canis we eventually end up with and ensure the protection of more areas for wildlife for a few more years then there are far worse ways to spend conservation cash.
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The coyote in the eastern part of the US are something different than Canis Latrans for sure. They are bigger stronger hunt in pairs instead of packs and take whitetail deer. The "red wolves" are closer to what I just described than they are western coyote or regular wolves.

If the Red Wolf is distinct then its not as rare as we make it out to be, they are all hybrids. Of the hundreds of suspected Canis Rufus that have been tested only about 5 percent of their genetic material isn't shared with Wolves or Eastern Coyote.

Again we keep postponing the science because of environmental politics which is what you just advocated.
 
tschandler71 said:
The coyote in the eastern part of the US are something different than Canis Latrans for sure. They are bigger stronger hunt in pairs instead of packs and take whitetail deer. The "red wolves" are closer to what I just described than they are western coyote or regular wolves.

If the Red Wolf is distinct then its not as rare as we make it out to be, they are all hybrids. Of the hundreds of suspected Canis Rufus that have been tested only about 5 percent of their genetic material isn't shared with Wolves or Eastern Coyote.

Again we keep postponing the science because of environmental politics which is what you just advocated.
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Here in Connecticut I've either seen lone Coyotes or large groups of Coyotes but never pairs.

For the record many endangered species in captivity are hybrids or mixed subspecies (I still consider that a hybrid but some of you guys don't so whatever). Famous examples are Barbary Lions and Amur Leopards. "Bengal" Tigers are also pretty good examples of this as well. Some people even believe that some African Elephants in the US have a little Forest Elephant in them and same with Western Lowland and Cross River Gorillas. There are definetly some hybrid (or mixed subspecies:rolleyes:) Asian Elephants around.

~Thylo:cool:
 
tschandler71 said:
Again we keep postponing the science because of environmental politics which is what you just advocated.
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I didn't 'advocate' postponing the science (avoiding looking for something because you might not like the answer is hardly good science, even if the politics are sensitive) - I just stated that it's far better that than giving up before we know for sure. While we don't want politics to rule science it can't be ignored altogether.

I'd far rather reach a consensus once and for all so we can get on directing the money/effort where it's needed most but if it's not been resolved after all the work that's already been done there's no reason to think we're just around the corner from such a consensus - so we need to have a plan while that happens so that we don't find we've lost a taxon that we already had an idea might exist.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Here in Connecticut I've either seen lone Coyotes or large groups of Coyotes but never pairs.

For the record many endangered species in captivity are hybrids or mixed subspecies (I still consider that a hybrid but some of you guys don't so whatever). Famous examples are Barbary Lions and Amur Leopards. "Bengal" Tigers are also pretty good examples of this as well. Some people even believe that some African Elephants in the US have a little Forest Elephant in them and same with Western Lowland and Cross River Gorillas. There are definetly some hybrid (or mixed subspecies:rolleyes:) Asian Elephants around.

~Thylo:cool:
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Those are slightly different cases though in that the taxonomy of those groups is relatively stable, so at least if something is a hybrid or subspecies-cross we know what it is. The problem with Canis in North America is that we don't really understand what there is yet - not even how many species exist, let alone their genetic or geographic limits.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Here in Connecticut I've either seen lone Coyotes or large groups of Coyotes but never pairs.

For the record many endangered species in captivity are hybrids or mixed subspecies (I still consider that a hybrid but some of you guys don't so whatever). Famous examples are Barbary Lions and Amur Leopards. "Bengal" Tigers are also pretty good examples of this as well. Some people even believe that some African Elephants in the US have a little Forest Elephant in them and same with Western Lowland and Cross River Gorillas. There are definetly some hybrid (or mixed subspecies:rolleyes:) Asian Elephants around.

~Thylo:cool:
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For the most part the AZA phases out cross species hybrids. Most of your examples are across subspecies. Where as the Red Wolf could be either cross species (which it should be phased out as its not a species itself) or a generic cross subspecies (which the AZA is also starting the phase out). It is unlikely Canis Rufus is a distinct species, the genetics are way to cloudy to ever prove it.
 
Exactly we aren't sure what exists yet. But seeing the Coyote in say Yellowstone compared to what is considered Coyote in the Smokies or Rural Alabama its night and day. Eastern Coyote are more than likely their own species and what we consider Red Wolf is probably a part of that species.

What I ultimately believe will happen is they will classify the Wolves in southeast Canada, Red Wolves, and the Larger Eastern Coyote as a new species - Canis Lycaon. The numbers for this proposed species would be probably considered LC or Conservation dependent though.
 
Yeah I was meaning like the phase out of the generic Bengals in favor of Malayan and Sumatran Tiger for instance.
 
tschandler71 said:
Exactly we aren't sure what exists yet. But seeing the Coyote in say Yellowstone compared to what is considered Coyote in the Smokies or Rural Alabama its night and day. Eastern Coyote are more than likely their own species and what we consider Red Wolf is probably a part of that species.
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That'd be huge news but I don't think we're anywhere close to coming up with that verdict.

~Thylo:cool:
 
epickoala123 said:
Ok e-mail sent to parque zoologico municipal quinzinho de barros, now just awaiting answer. half past nine here in scotland, so I might go to bed now, so will hopefully recieve answer in the morning.

In my e-mail I asked if the zoo held them, or If they new of any other zoos that held them.:cool:
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Thank's so much EpicKoala! Doing my work for me!!
 
Am I right in saying that Canadian lynx are rare? None in Britain, four locations in Europe, how about the usa
 
epickoala123 said:
Am I right in saying that Canadian lynx are rare? None in Britain, four locations in Europe, how about the usa
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They are everywhere in the US:)
I've visited five zoos this past year and two of those currently hold pairs of the species and a third is bringing them in soon. Of the remaining two, the North American exhibit was closed for one so I don't know if they carry them (but I don't think they do) and the other doesn't really hold North American species not from the Arctic.

~Thylo:cool:
 
epickoala123 said:
Am I right in saying that Canadian lynx are rare? None in Britain, four locations in Europe, how about the usa
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In Europe they are rare.
In the U.S., there are a good amount. I probably missed a few here but collections that hold them include Connecticut's Beardsley Zoo, Stone Zoo, ZooAmerica, Minnesota Zoo, Cheyenne Mountain Zoo, Pueblo Zoo, NEW Zoo, Philadelphia Zoo, New York Zoo, Queens Zoo, Buttonwood Park Zoo, ZooMontana, and Northwest Trek Wildlife Park.
 
BeardsleyZooFan said:
In Europe they are rare.
In the U.S., there are a good amount. I probably missed a few here but collections that hold them include Connecticut's Beardsley Zoo, Stone Zoo, ZooAmerica, Minnesota Zoo, Cheyenne Mountain Zoo, Pueblo Zoo, NEW Zoo, Philadelphia Zoo, New York Zoo, Queens Zoo, Buttonwood Park Zoo, ZooMontana, and Northwest Trek Wildlife Park.
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:confused:

~Thylo:cool:
 
I think the correct name is Canada Lynx, not Canadian Lynx (I don't know why it matters).

I believe the Roger William's Park Zoo is to have them.

~Thylo:cool:
 
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