Rat Survey- UK Zoos

[Twiglet2010]

I think rats are brilliant, wild or otherwise! I love my pet ratties and can't think of a better animal to have around. They're always going to be around in the wild, especially where there is "free" food around but I agree that they can cause problems for zoo animals. But then again, so can stupid visitors to the zoo (but for other reasons!)

 

[foz]

Ive yet to see a rat at a zoo though certainly seen mice. Mice at London and mice at Newquay - until recenly the wildlife at night building used to be infested but a revamp means i couldnt see a single one.

 

[FBBird]

Rat Survey -- UK Zoos

A rat is as 'good' or as dangerous as its lifestyle permits. Your pet rat will not dream of fouling its food with urine or faeces. A wild rat in a grain store will do both, as it's living surrounded by food and walking about in it. A rat in a sewer will eat human faeces, which I'm sure can be quite nourishing if that's all that's on offer. A rat's very versatility makes him a dangerous animal in a zoo; you literally 'don't know where he has been' what he has been walking in, etc. A healthy looking rat can still carry disease, which is why all animal keepers try to get rid of them. On the subject of releasing them elsewhere, I think thjis is illegal, at least in the UK. In fact, I think it's illegal to 'harbour' rats [ie have them about & not do anything about them]. I believe a mouse will 'home' for distances of up to a mile; wonder how far the more robust & intelligent rat will go?
Don't get me wrong, if I am properly introduced to a domestic rat, I will be polite and friendly to it, but wild rats anywhere near livestock [or indeed human habitation] are too much of a risk.
A doe rat in the wild is either pregnant, lactating, or both. This gives her a terrific need for protein, which could be chicks, ducklings, aviary birds or whatever she can catch. On a smaller scale, even mice will take baby birds out of nests, and even adult finches.

 

[FBBird]

Rat Survey -- UK Zoos

Just remembered; the biggest animal I have known killed by rats was a pair of Common Shelduck, so it's not just tiny stuff they are a threat to. There has also been at least one case of rats attacking and chewing the feet of living [and admittedly, probably chained] Elephants........

 

[Peter Dickinson]

In twenty years at the Welsh Mountain Zoo I only ever saw a rat twice....and I believe these were passing through. I have always believed that the snake population did for them before they ever got started.

Every other zoo I have worked in has had a rat problem.

 

[Pertinax]

The black rat is in fact a worse problem in that it displays very strong arboreal tendencies whereas the brown rat is predominantly terrestrial. Yes black rats eat insects and grains; they are also very predatory and a grave threat to any small vertebrate species.

I know that (introduced) Black Rats are very common in New Zealand. But here in the UK they are virtually extinct though there are occassional reports of fresh sightings such as one in Cornwall a couple of years ago. But the Rats present in our zoos here are always Rattus norvegicus(Brown Rat)

Black Rats have disappeared from all the ports & cities where they used to be found. One of the last known colonies was eradicated from Lundy Island in the Bristol Channel a few years ago as they were believed to be(at least partly) responsible for the decline in Puffin numbers- despite there being no tangible evidence. These rats were thought to have come from a ship from the Spanish Armada that was wrecked there- they were a 'dwarf' form apparently. Now the only place in the UK where its known the Black Rat still exists is on the Shiant Islands off Western Scotland.

 

[Pertinax]

Rats in Zoos

So you can imagine her impression of the zoo we visited recently as she saw a rat scamper unconcerned past her feet along the path between the zoo restaurant and the Giraffe house. Her view of that restaurant is now irrevocably tainted.

How does a place like SL get around this problem if visitors see a rat near a food outlet- someone is bound to report it to the Health authorities sooner or later. Do they investigate them?

 

[PAT]

I read (admittedly it was in a childrens fiction book) that mice and rats don't like living near each other so if you have mice in your house than you won't have rats, and vice and versa. Is this true? I always just believed it without question and was glad when I saw a mouse in the chook shed because it meant that there weren't rats. I've never seen a rat in the chook shed so I couldn't disprove the theory.

 

[lechweoryx]

Haven't seen any rats but I have seen plenty of wild mice at chester under bushes and even in the indoor monkey enclosures.

 

[urbpan]

In my experience, we've not had disease that has been directly attributable to rats (as I said before, it was much easier to point to stray cats as a vector) but we have had predation events on ducks. I suspect that rats only go for ducks that are already compromised in some way, since they would otherwise easily escape. Disease attributable to mice (and the ticks they carry) is more common, to say nothing of mosquitoes.

 

[Chlidonias]

Just remembered; the biggest animal I have known killed by rats was a pair of Common Shelduck, so it's not just tiny stuff they are a threat to. There has also been at least one case of rats attacking and chewing the feet of living [and admittedly, probably chained] Elephants........

the largest species I know of rats killing (as opposed to simply attacking and injuring) are nesting adult albatross in the Hawaiian islands by Polynesian rats (Rattus exulans).

I know that (introduced) Black Rats are very common in New Zealand. But here in the UK they are virtually extinct though there are occassional reports of fresh sightings such as one in Cornwall a couple of years ago. But the Rats present in our zoos here are always Rattus norvegicus(Brown Rat)

I actually overlooked the "UK Zoos" part of the thread title sorry. I was of course referring to rats in general terms in zoos worldwide. In NZ both species of rats (black and brown) are equally as likely to be seen in zoos, as are stoats and feral cats for that matter. I'm sure you in particular, having been to NZ, are aware of the depredations that black rats have caused in insular faunas (Big South Cape Island springs immediately to mind).

 

[Pertinax]

I'm sure you in particular, having been to NZ, are aware of the depredations that black rats have caused in insular faunas (Big South Cape Island springs immediately to mind).

Yes I am. I believe some of your offshore islands that have been cleared of rats involved Black Rat, not Brown. As big a pest, if not worse, than the Brown Rat in New Zealand?

Yet over here its seen as an inoffensive creature- almost lost to our 'native' fauna now and probably Britain's rarest land mammal.

 

[GreatApe]

I read (admittedly it was in a childrens fiction book) that mice and rats don't like living near each other so if you have mice in your house than you won't have rats, and vice and versa.

I have read somewhere that Brown Rats actually prey on mice, which would confirm your theory. A friend of mine said that some rabbit and guinea pig exhibitors they knew would keep a couple of - caged - domestic rats in their animal sheds, as they believed this would discourage mice.

BTW, the ratty situation in Dudley Zoo is quite bad now, I believe. They were strolling around in broad daylight in the Red Panda enclosure and also in the Red Squirrel aviaries. I don't know what can be done about this issue, since the hillside the zoo is built on is so thickly covered in vegetation that it must be a rodent utopia!

 

[adrian1963]

Dudley Zoo rat problem was beyond belief in the late 80's until the mid 90's the Red Panda enclosure as always had Rats as long as can remember and the Red Squirrel enclosures are at the bottom of a very damp and densely over grown bank so this will always have had Rats as did the Old Sun Bears enclosures which are now covered over by the dense shrubbery on the bank.
I have visited a few zoos over the last couple of years and found that some have rats and some seem to be Rat free.
The Rat free ones always seem to be the smaller collections and the ones that seem not to scatter feed thier animals could this be telling us all something and maybe the bigger zoos could take a note from the smaller collections

 

[RowanGreen]

Going back briefly to the cats in Australia... as I hope I've made clear before I apreciate that in some circumstances cats do do damage, and culling may be needed.

However, it's not so much that they are being culled that bothers me, but the attitude it often seems to be done with. Killing animals in large numbers is never something to be proud of. And if any of them are microchipped it does matter: someone went to the bother of having that chip put in precisely in the hope that if their pet went missing it would find it's way back to them. Even cats with responsible owners and kept inside do get lost sometimes: they get let out during burgalries, fires and when visitors and builders are around. There is no such thing as a 'feral species'. Ferals are any animal descended from animals kept in captivity. Feral cats are just the same as domestic cats: in many cases their parents will have been pets, and their kittens can be as well if they are taken in during the socialization period.

All through history cats have been a 'marmite' species, worshipped on the one hand, appallingly abused on the other. It still seems that a segment of society is alive and well that thinks that cats in some way 'deserve' what they get. Personally if I was running a zoo I wouldn't want to employ anyone who had that attitude about ANY animal, cat, rat, wallabie, whatever.

I also feel that anyone involved in conservation needs to keep an open mind. 'Cats actually might not be all bad in Australia' might seem a crazy idea, but it shouldn't be dismissed out of hand.

I haven't had time to read these through properly myself, but here's some links:
Google

 

[FBBird]

Rat Survey -- UK Zoos

Whether in a zoo or private collection/farmyard, rats need to be controlled, and regularly topped up bait boxes are the only efficient way of doing this.
I get the impression that, when rats are in any numbers, they clear out the mice; as a kid, I had a pet gerbil in an old budgie cage in the shed -- mice could get in through the bars, but never got out again, the gerbil killed and often partially ate them. With the exception of such innocents as the guinea pig [and probably all its close relatives from capybara downwards], most rodents seem to be omnivorous and will take meat when they can get it.

 

[Steve Robinson]

I haven't had time to read these through properly myself, but here's some links:
Google

Perhaps you should take the time ......

Does not a figure of 12 million feral cats in Australia indicate that they will have to be killed in "large numbers"?

By the time a microchipped cat becomes feral it is past the point of no return. It has to be killed - former pet or not.

You should not assume that my "attitude" is one of pleasure at the prospect of killing any living thing. Unlike these cats, that could be said to enjoy teasing my defenceless birds until they are too exhausted to escape their clutches. I do what I have to do to protect my animals and do not resile from that commitment.

As I said in an earlier post - come and walk a mile in my shoes. Nobody here has said that cats "deserve" to be killed, anymore than they deserved to be abandoned and left to themselves, thus creating today's situation. Your thoughts on killing them may one day change. If you ever do get to the stage where you are "running a zoo", please revisit this thread and we will continue the discussion.

 

[RowanGreen]

Perhaps you should take the time .......

I would love to, I have a job unfortunately. I have had a quick read... since you can't be bothered...

Does not a figure of 12 million feral cats in Australia indicate that they will have to be killed in "large numbers"?.

Not on it's own. Are they replacing predators that are absent (some suggest bringing back Tasmanian devils and dingoes would better control the situation than trying to control the cats), would killing them cause an explosion in none-native prey? Is trap/neuter a better option (read those links and you'll find several examples where tnr has proved better at controlling numbers than culling). Is it possible to kill large numbers of cats without killing large numbers of natives as well?

Does a figure of 6 billion humans causing massive habitat destruction world wide mean we should be starting a massive cull, or should we be coming up with more humane means of population control?

By the time a microchipped cat becomes feral it is past the point of no return. It has to be killed - former pet or not..

Not so. Cats that have had human contact during the socialization period as kittens can return to being pets. Depending on their experience as strays they may appear pretty wild when trapped due to being basically terrified and traumatised. But given the chance they are likely to soon calm down. A feral cat is one who has not been socialized as a kitten, though even some of them can come to trust individual humans.

You should not assume that my "attitude" is one of pleasure at the prospect of killing any living thing. Unlike these cats, that could be said to enjoy teasing my defenceless birds until they are too exhausted to escape their clutches. I do what I have to do to protect my animals and do not resile from that commitment..

I was careful not to directly accuse you, but I think you've just done a pretty good job of illustrating your attitude to cats (and presumably any other animal that hunts). As a FYI most cats that depend on hunting for a living will kill prey quickly with a bite to the back of the neck (much more quickly than canines that kill by ripping out the guts). Cats bring prey to kittens for them to learn to hunt. Domestic cats may not have had these lessons and as such may be incompetant hunters who therefore apear to 'play' with their kills.

As I said in an earlier post - come and walk a mile in my shoes. Nobody here has said that cats "deserve" to be killed, anymore than they deserved to be abandoned and left to themselves, thus creating today's situation. Your thoughts on killing them may one day change. If you ever do get to the stage where you are "running a zoo", please revisit this thread and we will continue the discussion.

I say again, I'm not totally against culling, just against decisions based on hate and ignorance (talking generallly, not at you). In some cases culling may be the only humane option for the cats themselves for one thing. But I agree, this thread is meant to be about rats in the UK, and I have work to get to... The links are there if anyone wants to read them.

 

[Pertinax]

.
I get the impression that, when rats are in any numbers, they clear out the mice; as a kid, I had a pet gerbil in an old budgie cage in the shed -- mice could get in through the bars, but never got out again, the gerbil killed and often partially ate them.

Interesting as we had a similar but reverse ocurrence, where the Gerbils(2) were the victims-to a Rat. It broke into their cage in the Garage and killed them. I know it was a Rat as I shot it a couple of days later underneath the Gerbil tank...

 

[Pertinax]

Rat Survey.

BTW, the ratty situation in Dudley Zoo is quite bad now, I believe. They were strolling around in broad daylight in the Red Panda enclosure and also in the Red Squirrel aviaries. I don't know what can be done about this issue, since the hillside the zoo is built on is so thickly covered in vegetation that it must be a rodent utopia!

This thread has generated far more interest than I expected, particularly about the behaviour of Rats both in zoos and generally.

To return to the original subject, the UK zoos so far mentioned here that seem currently to have a lot of Rats are, and in no particular order (big pause).................................;

Dudley. Colchester & South Lakes.