Realistic ways of getting rare (and not) animals in the Speculative Zoo Design section

[amur leopard]

I wrote the first thing that came to my mind, no idea if they're kept in any zoo outside of the Land Down Under

Obviously putting aside the immense wild population within Australia and the large numbers of specimens in captivity there too, there's a couple of European and NA zoos with them.

 

[Mickey]

Obviously putting aside the immense wild population within Australia and the large numbers of specimens in captivity there too, there's a couple of European and NA zoos with them.

Thanks for clarifying, this proves my very little knowledge about marsupials ahah

 

[TeaLovingDave]

Thanks for clarifying, this proves my very little knowledge about marsupials ahah

And a wobbly grasp on sarcasm, it seems

To clarify, greater bushbabies are not marsupials and are native to Africa, not Australia - therefore there would be no reason whatsoever to send an illegally-smuggled animal seized within Europe all the way to Australia. I don't think there are any in Australia at all, whether captive or wild!

There are, however, fairly decent numbers in European and North American captive collections.

 

[Mickey]

And a wobbly grasp on sarcasm, it seems

To clarify, greater bushbabies are not marsupials and are native to Africa, not Australia - therefore there would be no reason whatsoever to send an illegally-smuggled animal seized within Europe all the way to Australia. I don't think there are any in Australia at all, whether captive or wild!

There are, however, fairly decent numbers in European and North American captive collections.

Oh damn, this a whole other level of embarrassment

 

[Mickey]

After thinking about it, aren't Giant Pandas kept only by "paying a generous amount of money" to China? Why would it be wrong to do it with other countries?

 

[amur leopard]

After thinking about it, aren't Giant Pandas kept only by "paying a generous amount of money" to China? Why would it be wrong to do it with other countries?

The Chinese 'loaning' system is somewhat of an exception because no other country has the combination of a massively charismatic species that will draw massive crowds to zoos and the political power to see the plan through. That's why this is only the case in China and could more or less never apply to anything else.

Either way, the 'first bullet point' is out of the question and no zoo with a reputation to cling to would ever attempt such a shifty, likely illegal, deal other than as mentioned above, with China for pandas. It's not that deep - if you want to make your speculative zoo realistic, don't try to 'bring in' a species by dishing out large sums of money to a country with a hard stance on the wildlife trade; it doesn't work in real life, there would be an massive outcry and it would never happen full stop.

 

[Great Argus]

Thanks for clarifying, this proves my very little knowledge about marsupials ahah

Were you possibly looking for Greater Bilby? Which *is* both a marsupial and native to Australia.
Which likely would be returned to Australia, but the chances of one leaving the country in the first place is like nil.

 

[Mickey]

Were you possibly looking for Greater Bilby? Which *is* both a marsupial and native to Australia.
Which likely would be returned to Australia, but the chances of one leaving the country in the first place is like nil.

Oh yeah that's the one, thanks, also yes chances of every rare animal leaving its home country are basically null in the first place, but since I'm in Italy and Cosa Nostra has its tentacles reaching almost every corner of the world in some way or another, I think it can be a good excuse to seize these animals from them, can it?

 

[Mickey]

Either way, the 'first bullet point' is out of the question

Yes I just wanted to clarify on that since I didn't know too much about it

 

[Batto]

I think it can be a good excuse to seize these animals from them, can it?

Is there a demand in the shady underground world of small marsupial keepers outside of Europe big and thus profitable enough for the Italian that would "justify" smuggling Greater Bilbies out of Oz?
A) No.
B) Nope.
C) Only during the Easter Holidays and among Australian expats.

 

[Great Argus]

but since I'm in Italy and Cosa Nostra has its tentacles reaching almost every corner of the world in some way or another, I think it can be a good excuse to seize these animals from them, can it?

As Batto has already stated, no.

 

[Simon Hampel]

Were you possibly looking for Greater Bilby? Which *is* both a marsupial and native to Australia.
Which likely would be returned to Australia, but the chances of one leaving the country in the first place is like nil.

Given our very strict biosecurity laws - I'm not sure that returning it to Australia would actually be possible.

If it did - there would be a lengthy and very strict quarantine period - the last thing we would want to do is introduce a foreign disease or parasite into the Australian ecosystem.

 

[Great Argus]

Given our very strict biosecurity laws - I'm not sure that returning it to Australia would actually be possible.

If it did - there would be a lengthy and very strict quarantine period - the last thing we would want to do is introduce a foreign disease or parasite into the Australian ecosystem.

That's true, no knowing what it's been exposed to during the overseas stint. Can't blame Australia for wanting to be careful.

 

[WalkingAgnatha]

Given our very strict biosecurity laws - I'm not sure that returning it to Australia would actually be possible.

If it did - there would be a lengthy and very strict quarantine period - the last thing we would want to do is introduce a foreign disease or parasite into the Australian ecosystem.

I mean NZ with our very strict biosecurity laws, still accepted back the two jewelled geckos from Cologne Zoo so, I'd say the latter's likely.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

I mean NZ with our very strict biosecurity laws, still accepted back the two jewelled geckos from Cologne Zoo so, I'd say the latter's likely.

Very true, but if you read the article posted upthread it was explicitly stated that due to biosecurity concerns the geckos in question could never be re-released into the wild

 

[WalkingAgnatha]

Very true, but if you read the article posted upthread it was explicitly stated that due to biosecurity concerns the geckos in question could never be re-released into the wild

Whoops.

 

[Mickey]

Very true, but if you read the article posted upthread it was explicitly stated that due to biosecurity concerns the geckos in question could never be re-released into the wild

So in the end they would still be captive, so they could still be held in an European facility

 

[Great Argus]

So in the end they would still be captive, so they could still be held in an European facility

Could, yes. But just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Great Whites can be attempted, but that doesn't mean they should. Monterey Bay Aquarium ended up publicly announcing they would not keep Great Whites again as it was clearly not in the best interest of the species.
And in terms of Aussie animals: ACTP got itself into a lot of hot water with Australia over endangered parrots in the last few years. Zoo Berlin distributing surplus bettongs to the private sector didn't go over too well either.
I certainly wouldn't recommend being responsible for illegally getting animals out of Ecuador or Ethiopia either. Also there were reasons many zoos that could have taken tree pangolins from the most recent import did not.

Some countries place significant value on their wildlife, and take both smuggling and legal exports very seriously. Sometimes there is heritage/cultural attachment too, as seen in the gecko article: “For many New Zealanders, geckos are considered a taonga or treasure so we are delighted that the hard work of New Zealand and German authorities has resulted in their return,' Ms Wagner says."
In many cases the specialities are at certain zoos for good reason, San Diego and Hamerton's Aussie collections are examples. As a general rule, the rest of the zoo world has the standard Aussie species that were exported and established prior to the export bans. There are exceptions - nonbreeding Tasmanian Devils for example, emphasis on non-breeding - but we must respect their decisions on exports and conservation and work with what we have. If it means sending confiscated geckos back, then send the geckos back. It's worth it for the diplomatic relationships and good press (besides legal reasons), and maybe down the line it will open the door for an offer of legal export. But the latter should not be the primary reason for doing what's right.

 

[Mickey]

Could, yes. But just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Great Whites can be attempted, but that doesn't mean they should. Monterey Bay Aquarium ended up publicly announcing they would not keep Great Whites again as it was clearly not in the best interest of the species.
And in terms of Aussie animals: ACTP got itself into a lot of hot water with Australia over endangered parrots in the last few years. Zoo Berlin distributing surplus bettongs to the private sector didn't go over too well either.
I certainly wouldn't recommend being responsible for illegally getting animals out of Ecuador or Ethiopia either. Also there were reasons many zoos that could have taken tree pangolins from the most recent import did not.

Some countries place significant value on their wildlife, and take both smuggling and legal exports very seriously. Sometimes there is heritage/cultural attachment too, as seen in the gecko article: “For many New Zealanders, geckos are considered a taonga or treasure so we are delighted that the hard work of New Zealand and German authorities has resulted in their return,' Ms Wagner says."
In many cases the specialities are at certain zoos for good reason, San Diego and Hamerton's Aussie collections are examples. As a general rule, the rest of the zoo world has the standard Aussie species that were exported and established prior to the export bans. There are exceptions - nonbreeding Tasmanian Devils for example, emphasis on non-breeding - but we must respect their decisions on exports and conservation and work with what we have. If it means sending confiscated geckos back, then send the geckos back. It's worth it for the diplomatic relationships and good press (besides legal reasons), and maybe down the line it will open the door for an offer of legal export. But the latter should not be the primary reason for doing what's right.

Great point, I can't think of a single reason to go against this statement; with this being said, unless as you said, in the future these countries open up to legal wildlife export, it's nowhere to be considered to include these species in a realistically founded and legally runned zoo, so with the inclusion of these animals the zoo should already be considered unrealistic, do we all agree on this?

 

[Haliaeetus]

Could, yes. But just because you can doesn't mean that you should. Great Whites can be attempted, but that doesn't mean they should. Monterey Bay Aquarium ended up publicly announcing they would not keep Great Whites again as it was clearly not in the best interest of the species.
And in terms of Aussie animals: ACTP got itself into a lot of hot water with Australia over endangered parrots in the last few years. Zoo Berlin distributing surplus bettongs to the private sector didn't go over too well either.
I certainly wouldn't recommend being responsible for illegally getting animals out of Ecuador or Ethiopia either. Also there were reasons many zoos that could have taken tree pangolins from the most recent import did not.

Some countries place significant value on their wildlife, and take both smuggling and legal exports very seriously. Sometimes there is heritage/cultural attachment too, as seen in the gecko article: “For many New Zealanders, geckos are considered a taonga or treasure so we are delighted that the hard work of New Zealand and German authorities has resulted in their return,' Ms Wagner says."
In many cases the specialities are at certain zoos for good reason, San Diego and Hamerton's Aussie collections are examples. As a general rule, the rest of the zoo world has the standard Aussie species that were exported and established prior to the export bans. There are exceptions - nonbreeding Tasmanian Devils for example, emphasis on non-breeding - but we must respect their decisions on exports and conservation and work with what we have. If it means sending confiscated geckos back, then send the geckos back. It's worth it for the diplomatic relationships and good press (besides legal reasons), and maybe down the line it will open the door for an offer of legal export. But the latter should not be the primary reason for doing what's right.

I add that breeding of Tasmanian Devils (and imports of a few pairs from Australia) actually happens in Europe (Kobenhavn, Prague...). Several zoos of New Zealand (where there aren't native marsupials) have also them according to Zootierliste. Maybe the situation is different in America or other continents, where breeding pairs should be totally absent (I don't know anything about this point).
It may be an exception of the general ban you've described, due to the endangerment (and charisma!) of this species.