Melbourne Zoo Rigo the gorilla.....

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gorillagirl said:
Have any of you spoken to any of the keepers involved in this process and what did they say about it?
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Gorilla Girl- I cannot consult with the Ape keepers at Melbourne Zoo as I live on the other side of the world- however I do have full details of the intended integration of Rigo with the group, as sent to me by their curator recently.

But this is missing the point- you imply, by the tone of your original post, that we think the current situation with Rigo is a 'negative'. Not at all- Rigo living alone for so long WAS a negative- I suspect no-one, including Melbourne authorities, would disagree with that- but now he's being inroduced to other gorillas, that's a POSITIVE- I for one am very pleased Melbourne are doing it. I'm also watching with interest to see what the outcome of this will be e.g. will Rigo integrate well, will he even be able to breed again? This is what I hypothesise about as I've been studying gorillas in captivity (worldwide)for very many years now and this is a particularly interesting case, a mature silverback being reintroduced to other gorillas like this, after many years of living on his own.

What I said was stupid was the idea that any of us who post here think Melbourne deliberately engineered a difficult situation-,they didn't,- the gorillas do that well enough themselves. And yes, this is a public forum and your comments are as welcome and valuable as mine(or not!):)
 
gorillagirl said:
Have any of you spoken to any of the keepers involved in this process and what did they say about it?
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i have - but i didn't get much of an opportunity to dive particaurly deep. i tread very carefully when i actually speak to zoo employees. i have a lot of faith in zookeepers and i generally wanna make sure i'm not having a stab at their livlihood. i have had some very frank and honest conversations with some but generally they naturally assume that i don't know much about the history of the particular animals, or the species in general so sometimes i sense they give me the "easy answer".

in any event, the primate keeper i spoke to told me that essentially australian zoos had a lot of trouble sourcing females from europe. why i dont know. she also said that they didn't want to mix the taronga and melbourne lineages.

gorilla girl - i think everyone here has full faith in the keepers at our major zoos. i'm sure like any profession some are much better than others, some may even be crap, but no doubt they are all in the business because of a love of wildlife and a compassion for animals. most of my criticism (when i throw it out there) is directed at zoo management and in no way a reflection of how i feel about the majority of zoo employees. i'm sure there are plenty of people at the zoo who feel much more passionately about rigo's situation than i do. when i say "the zoo" i'm talking about the guys who make the descisions. the ones who choose what to spend money on and what not to..

your welcome on the forum.
 
Patrick is right in that the keepers don't always make the decisions with regard to complex animal moves or introductions. Depending on the zoo, they may be wholly responsible, or be consulted, or play very little part in a decision- in my experience the bigger the zoo, the less 'clout' they have, while in small zoos they may have almost a free hand. Zoo management, studbook keepers etc often play the major role in such decision making. More than once I've been told by a keeper "we didn't ask for him" etc in reference to a newly arrived animal not proving very satisfactory- their input or suggestions having been overruled by others...

In Rigo's case, it was a particular sequence of events which led to his being isolated for so long, including his aggressive behaviour to Yuska in the past, followed by Melbourne's wish to form a social group headed by a reliable breeding silverback(which made Rigo a risky option from his past behaviour) Coupled with that is Australia's geographical isolation and importation laws, making obtaining further mates for Rigo more difficult than it would have been e.g. in Europe.

I would think the zoo authorities will be as pleased as anybody if Rigo's integration goes smoothly(any news anybody?) and the 'embarassing situation' is finally laid to rest...
 
Thanks guys, that is all I wanted. To open up a bit more discussion and see where your comming from. Appreciate your replies. And apologies again if I upset anyone or put them on the back foot!
 
gorillagirl said:
Answer if you like, or dont. Have any of you spoken to any of the keepers involved in this process and what did they say about it?
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I'm kinda curious to ask you your own question gorillagirl - Have you spoken to any of the keepers involved in this process and what did they say about it?
 
No, I havent. I have spoken to FOTZ, but they dont say much. I was curious becuase there are alot of theories here. I asumed one of you must know a keeper that you can get up to date info from. I unfortunitly dont get to the zoo much...
 
gorillagirl said:
No, I havent. I have spoken to FOTZ, but they dont say much. I was curious becuase there are alot of theories here. I asumed one of you must know a keeper that you can get up to date info from. I unfortunitly dont get to the zoo much...
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Ahhh! Sadly, as we all know, an all to often unrelaible source of "facts". I think zoo friends play a great role in our zoos, but unfortunately far to often, I've heard them, in many zoos, sprouting absolute rubbish. And just as unfortunately, their often misinformed ideas are spread amongst themselves and become "fact".

I guess the reason I asked you your own question is because your earlier posts implied that you either worked with the gorillas at Melbourne, or knew a lot about them and their management, and were somewhat critical or defensive about comments that had been made on the forum. It's good to know that your concerns come from within, and not from someone with intimate knowledge of the management of these animals, who is justifiably able to be critical of comments made on here :).
 
ZooPro said:
Ahhh! Sadly, as we all know, an all to often unrelaible source of "facts". I think zoo friends play a great role in our zoos, but unfortunately far to often, I've heard them, in many zoos, sprouting absolute rubbish. And just as unfortunately, their often misinformed ideas are spread amongst themselves and become "fact".
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Oh, ZooPro, how right you are......!!!!

Incidentally, I've just contacted Melbourne to see if they'll give me another update on the gorillas, they were very informative the last time....:)
 
Why is there so much collaboration between the Australian and European gorilla programs? Doesn't the US have a thriving gorilla population? Why can't we access individuals from that program?
 
kelvin said:
Why is there so much collaboration between the Australian and European gorilla programs? Doesn't the US have a thriving gorilla population? Why can't we access individuals from that program?
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That's a good point. I believe the two Australian zoos holding gorillas are affiliated with the Gorilla EEP, maybe ZooPro knows why?

I don't think there's any particular reason why US gorillas haven't come to Australia yet- though Melbourne's G-Anne was actually born in Oklahoma USA then grew up in Jersey.UK.
 
Yes grantsmb, that's right. Gorillas in this region are managed very closely in conjunction with the European gorilla EEP. Any breeding or transfer recommendations are made jointly between the species coordinator here and the EEP coordinator. This collaboration was agreed to by both regions in 2004.

There is no reason why animals cannot be exchanged with the US, or other countries (recently, animals were sent from Taronga to Japan), but the population here is managed alongside the EEP population, for the mutual benefit of both groups. It is quite likely that in the future, additional exchanges of gorillas will happen between this region and Japan and South East Asia.
 
Its interesting that so far, very few USA gorillas have entered the European population either. A few have gone the other way(europe to USA) in the past but not recently. There may soon be a need for more unrelated males e.g. from the USA, to be added to European groups to widen the genepools.
 
you would suspect that with so many gorillas in captivity in both regions (and a lot of wild caught ones at that) - it is more practical to manage the two populations seperate for the time being. australia with so few zoos, is better off just representing a satellite population of one or the other "in this case europe" to keep things simple.
 
same as with sumatran tigers, for example, and a range of other species. red pandas, or orangutans, for example, seem to be drawn from accross the world, but most of our sumatran tigers seem to be imported from germany.
 
patrick said:
you would suspect that with so many gorillas in captivity in both regions (and a lot of wild caught ones at that) - it is more practical to manage the two populations seperate for the time being. australia with so few zoos, is better off just representing a satellite population of one or the other "in this case europe" to keep things simple.
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This has wandered away from 'Rigo' a bit but its still about Gorilla management... When Apenheul Zoo in Holland were looking for a new Silverback male to head their large group last year, they ended up choosing(yes choosing, as they're are now the studbook keepers!) a male who has full siblings breeding in several other European groups, because he was the best choice socially from the available males. So that line(from Krefeld Zoo) is being increasingly over-represented now, especially as this male -Jambo- is likely to breed(if allowed to) with several females in his new home( possibly two are already pregnant) The stage has been reached where a totally unrelated male from the USA might have been a better choice in this case...

Pat's reference to 'a lot of wild caught ones at that' is no longer true- the number of w/c animals in the zoo population worldwide is diminishing rapidly as the older animals die off and no new imports are made. In Oz you still have Rigo, Betsi, Yuska (+Julia) as wildcaught animals at Melbourne, and Mouila, Frala and...? in the Taronga group. All of them have bred at least once but in Europe(and USA) there are still a number of older wildcaught gorillas that have never contributed to their zoo populations, despite efforts- in most cases at least- to breed from them. Most of those which still have no offspring have social problems of some sort and are 'no-hopers' in the breeding stakes.

The young female 'Safira' from Taronga/Adelaide has recently gone to Duisburg Zoo 'where they have kept gorillas since 1962'- true- but they've yet to breed one... Their old silverback male 'Catou' is one of that category of old wildcaught animals who's never bred/mated with females- its most likely he will now have to be replaced before Safira and other females there can breed.

Still hoping for an update from Melbourne Zoo....
 
rigo update 2/7/07

visited melbourne yesterday. rigo still has not been properly integrated. instead he is still getting used to the rainforest exhibit - sharing it on a rotation system with the females.

the batchelors are apparently doing "okay" - its been a bit stressful, particuarly on motaba. interestingly i was told he's very fond of his youngest son though yakini and motaba do not have the best relationship.
 
oh and i forgot - apparently (FOTZ volunteer) the zoo is trying to raise an aditional $600,000 (as there funding has already been earmarked for the seals) so that they can redevelop the great ape grottoes so as to suit batchelor gorillas permanatly. as to be expected, the new design will involve filling in of the moats and demolishing of diving walls to create much more space and remove any potential hazards for the apes. currently, the grottoes are blocked off from the public to give the gorillas more privacy, and apparently the finished design will have a viweing area at one end only, so as to allow them to continue as such.

essentially, this will make it moreso an entirely new exhibit rather than just a refurb of the old ones (which are completely unsuitable) and given the zoo has enough money to spend on the horticultural and artistc elements - it could actually be quite good.
 
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