johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
Tear gas isn't that clever, it doesn't seek out those committing crimes, its kind of indiscriminate.....so people trying to get home, local residents, shopkeepers, paramedics....all get a dose.
ZSL London Zoo Rioting
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Tear gas isn't that clever, it doesn't seek out those committing crimes, its kind of indiscriminate.....so people trying to get home, local residents, shopkeepers, paramedics....all get a dose.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
If you live somewhere where you are not going to be housed by the council, where the majority of private landlords discriminate by saying 'no DSS' when they advertise property, where the rent is more than your Housing Benefit covers, where there are NO JOBS, and those few that people you know do have are casualised, with no guaranteed hours, on low pay, when everyone you know is getting 'sanctioned' at the job centre and denied money for 2 weeks because they didn't do a web search properly or apply for 5 jobs rather than the six they were told to, when you are a person of colour and see complete strangers clutch their bag a bit more tightly on the bus when they see you, or walk a bit faster when they pass you, and in your run-down, dirt-poor neighbourhood there are dealers offering you stuff on the way home, offering you money to run little errands for them when they see you in the park, its not easy to say, 'sorry, I've got better things to do', when you clearly haven't. Especially when the cuts have meant the local youth projects have all but closed down.
Be very careful when you talk about sterilizing people, google 'Eugenics'. Hitler loved it. Those same scientists were given safe haven in the US when the Nazi's fell, there is a long history of African-American women being targeting for terminations and sterilizations. Its a very loaded thing to say people should be prevented from having children.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
British law punishes criminals with either community sentences or prison. While I don't support it, I don't understand how fighting the police and risking your freedom is cowardly.
Because when a riot starts, not everybody in the vicinity is committing a crime. Its not illegal to be present, only to commit actual crimes. Even the police say water cannons are pointless in this kind of situation, they prefer them for large protests when they want to put a large advancing group of people back.
Do you mean like, youth workers, support workers, that type of thing? Or volunteers? People who work with offenders do so to reduce the rate of re-offending, its cheaper to the taxpayer than prison, which is why it is often used. The same with drug workers.
Community service is very commonly used, its very widespread for non-violent offences particularly. In this country we have a judiciary, which is important as it prevent the government from being all powerful (ie. if a fascist government got in, you'd want judges who can overturn individual laws), and as those arrested in the riots are tried, judges will sentence as they see fit, but it is important they are the ones to decide, not the media. If it is deemed unsafe for rioters to be given community service, ie risk creating more public order offences from members of the public starting on them, then it is unlikely they will be given these.
Don't listen to the hype! You should never call for prison labour or anything similar as it takes away real jobs, it undercuts workers. Large companies already go for prison labour rather than offering people, who haven't committed crimes, real jobs. You think its good punishment, but it hurts employment in this country.
Ok, but prison is really expensive. It is pointless jailing someone for way longer than a judge deems necessary, they're not stupid, they'll know how screwed their employment prospects are, but they'll make so many contacts inside that its a very high likelihood that they'll reoffend. The sentence needs to be just harsh enough to deter them from ever doing it again, not so long that they abandon all hope of turning their lives around once released.
Like, violent parenting? I'm glad hitting your kids isn't okay anymore personally.
I don't think this is about colour. There are just as many white British people participating in these riots, just as there are plenty of blacks and asians that are involved in trying to clean up after the idiots.
Let's face it, if it were just the blacks and asians surely this isn't the way to go about things? If it were just these, then surely it would be saying that the white British view that they are all hooligans and violent theives would be being reinforced?
RowanGreen
Well-Known Member
Johnstoni, I'm white, been in a job (low paid, but one I like) for 3 years now, so I'm one of the 'respectable' people. But in the past I've been long term unemployed and was homeless for three and half years. So I know what you are talking about.
I find it pretty scary how little some people understand.
The behavior of rioters was stupid, senseless and in many cases pretty evil. I do support bringing them to justice and making sure they are punished. But there are real reasons behind what's happened, and those who've been scapegoating the poor and disadvantaged for years need to own up to their share of the guilt and work to build bridges to stop this happening again.
On sterilization... I would like to see the population go down. I personally feel that overcrowding may have been a factor. Actually to the person who said they could go to the parks... true some days, but in warm weather round here the parks remind me of a seal colony or refugee camp (it's the smoke from the barbecues gives that impression!). And the police will move them on there too. I wouldn't be totally against a law that people couldn't have more than two kids. BUT, if it were to be brought in it would have to apply to everyone. I wouldn't actively support it either. It's a general trend that people who feel secure and sure they'll be able to raise the kids they have, and have good access to contraception tend to breed less anyway. So lessen the poverty gap and we might get some comunities having less kids.
I find it pretty scary how little some people understand.
The behavior of rioters was stupid, senseless and in many cases pretty evil. I do support bringing them to justice and making sure they are punished. But there are real reasons behind what's happened, and those who've been scapegoating the poor and disadvantaged for years need to own up to their share of the guilt and work to build bridges to stop this happening again.
On sterilization... I would like to see the population go down. I personally feel that overcrowding may have been a factor. Actually to the person who said they could go to the parks... true some days, but in warm weather round here the parks remind me of a seal colony or refugee camp (it's the smoke from the barbecues gives that impression!). And the police will move them on there too. I wouldn't be totally against a law that people couldn't have more than two kids. BUT, if it were to be brought in it would have to apply to everyone. I wouldn't actively support it either. It's a general trend that people who feel secure and sure they'll be able to raise the kids they have, and have good access to contraception tend to breed less anyway. So lessen the poverty gap and we might get some comunities having less kids.
A good smack to the backside is just what these people needed when they were young
Never did me any harm - funny how I had a proper upbringing with a firm punishment if I did wrong and now I have no criminal record, don't do drugs etc.To any members who have experienced both, what made you stop wrong-doing more as a child - a good kick/smack to the backside or 10 minutes sat out of the way on the naughty step?
KCZooFan
Well-Known Member
A good smack to the backside is just what these people needed when they were young
To any members who have experienced both, what made you stop wrong-doing more as a child - a good kick/smack to the backside or 10 minutes sat out of the way on the naughty step?
I completely agree with you here. Many of the small time criminals I know (I don't know many) have weak parents. Too much political correctness has gotten rid of this effect way of parenting. I don't think parents should senselessy abuse there children, but a swat is perfectly fine.
As for the race issue, it seems like johnstoni is trying to create a problem that isn't really even there. I dont get nervous because I see a black person, I get nervous when I see someone who acts or dresses like a criminal. These people are criminals and should nout be treated like heros by anyone. A peaceful protest is fine, but this uncalled for violenc completly diminishes their case, imo.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
You have to trust people who can see, that there is a race issue, at least in London. Just because you don't see it, doesn't mean people are making stuff up. Seriously, go read about white privilege, this is really important. My point wasn't aimed at you, its not helpful for every single person to defend what they do or don't feel when they 'see a black person', the point is about what its like from the perspective of another, who experiences that day on day. Noone is accusing you of any wrongdoing, its not useful for you to be defensive.
But this is not just, or always, about race. Class privilege is also a huge factor.
What is 'dressing like a criminal', though?
a bit contradictory there - you say that corporal punishment (smacking wrongdoers) isn't the point, it is lack of discipline.
I was under the impression that smacking your child if they did wrong WAS discipline - so yes, these people are the way they are through lack of discipline
I would say it's relevant to the discussion
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
It should also be noted that the police were ordered to stand back and allow looting and fires to be started, with the intention of arresting people later. A lot of people are starting to question this, as ultimately it is leading to shriller and shriller calls for rubber bullets, water cannons, army on the streets, or worse.
KCZooFan
Well-Known Member
I was using myself as a generalization. Racism isn't as common as you may think. Except in a few cases, black and white people are treated completely as equals in modern society. But yes, class is a huge factor. Of course people will treat a middle class person better than a lower class. Is this wrong? Yes. But it has nothing to do with race. Maybe black people are a little more prominent in the lower class, but class is a much more important factor for judging.
Dressing like a criminal is baggy clothes, pants falling down. And similar stuff. It is not too hard to look presentable, even if you don't have much money.
Okay Im white, But went to a very multicultural inner Birmingham college, come from a very working class background, Im 18 and, until this week, unemployed. The Riots do not spark from race-based anger but from generational anger and a culture of stupidity. Ive been in constant contact with various friends, blackc, Asian and White all inner city and terrified for their lives. Race issues are arising..one friend has told me about a gang of asian muslims attacking black youths in 'revenge'. However the riots arent starting as demonstration of racial tensions, but these are a bi product, as they always are with this kind of thing.
Its not the problem of a generation but of a minority culture where violence, stupidity and criminility are the underscoring values. 95% of this 'riot' generation are not rioter, they are good people, they can even be fantastic people. ALL of my friends, black, asian, white (you name it) are decent human beings who are, currently, terrified about these riots. Seriously terrified.
There is no easy thing to place the blame on, It isnt totally the economic slump, unemployment etc, its not racial injustice and its certainly not generational.
Its not the problem of a generation but of a minority culture where violence, stupidity and criminility are the underscoring values. 95% of this 'riot' generation are not rioter, they are good people, they can even be fantastic people. ALL of my friends, black, asian, white (you name it) are decent human beings who are, currently, terrified about these riots. Seriously terrified.
There is no easy thing to place the blame on, It isnt totally the economic slump, unemployment etc, its not racial injustice and its certainly not generational.
Now let's see, I was born in oxford and lived on a council estate - the roughest in the country at the time, my father was unemployed, my mother had numerous jobs.
I have never taken drugs, I have not got a criminal record. I was brought up with morals and a simple understanding of what is right and wrong.
Class privilege has sod all to do with it.
Stop trying to justify the moronic actions of these idiots. I hope the police do get heavy handed. They deserve the beatings they are going to get.
A slap round the head or a swift slap on the arse never does anyone any harm. Unless your feeble and week minded.
I have never taken drugs, I have not got a criminal record. I was brought up with morals and a simple understanding of what is right and wrong.
Class privilege has sod all to do with it.
Stop trying to justify the moronic actions of these idiots. I hope the police do get heavy handed. They deserve the beatings they are going to get.
A slap round the head or a swift slap on the arse never does anyone any harm. Unless your feeble and week minded.
lechweoryx
Well-Known Member
The poor police can't win!
If they try and stop the disorder then they get blamed for being too forceful so then they hold back and then get blamed for not doing anything to stop the riots.
If they try and stop the disorder then they get blamed for being too forceful so then they hold back and then get blamed for not doing anything to stop the riots.
a bit contradictory there - you say that corporal punishment (smacking wrongdoers) isn't the point, it is lack of discipline.
I was under the impression that smacking your child if they did wrong WAS discipline - so yes, these people are the way they are through lack of discipline
Not at all contradictory. Discipline, and importantly, self-discipline have nothing to do with violence. We need less violence in society, not more of it.
And corporal punishment is nothing more than violence.
Also I don't think anyone is seeking to justify the violence, merely trying to make sense of the situation and seeking ways to move forward.
adrian1963
Well-Known Member
@JOHNSTONI
The do gooder I am on about are those that got punishment at school stopped ie- the Cane a smack from the teacher for doing something wrong, made it against the law for a parent to smack a child in public, for a prisoner to be able to claim damnages against the VICTIM of his/her crime, the withdrawal of national service, giving prisoners a better standard of living then some people can gain on the outside (I know through experience), shortening jail time for good behaviour, making it very hard for the police to do thier jobs correctly.
As for the water cannon being used on the roiters in london then whats the difference between them and a larger group (who would also have bystanders watching because its human nature to be nosy)
This country needs to find it backbone again and say enough is enough of the stupid laws from europe and bring back the old laws
If you are old enough to commit the crime you ARE old enough to do the time
The do gooder I am on about are those that got punishment at school stopped ie- the Cane a smack from the teacher for doing something wrong, made it against the law for a parent to smack a child in public, for a prisoner to be able to claim damnages against the VICTIM of his/her crime, the withdrawal of national service, giving prisoners a better standard of living then some people can gain on the outside (I know through experience), shortening jail time for good behaviour, making it very hard for the police to do thier jobs correctly.
As for the water cannon being used on the roiters in london then whats the difference between them and a larger group (who would also have bystanders watching because its human nature to be nosy)
This country needs to find it backbone again and say enough is enough of the stupid laws from europe and bring back the old laws
If you are old enough to commit the crime you ARE old enough to do the time
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
Maybe not where you live, but here in London, you need to accept what people are telling you. You don't get it, its not your fault, but I can't show you something you don't want to see. There is a very strong link between race and class here.
No, thats dressing like a young, working class black or south Asian male (although some white kids emulate this style). If there was such thing as dressing like a criminal, the police would have a very easy job.
johnstoni.
Well-Known Member
You make a good point about discipline, parents are wary, teachers are wary, see this article:
UK riots: 'Being liberal is fine, but we need to be given the right to parent' | UK news | The Guardian
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