Rare Species Conservation Centre RSCC news 2009

[peacockpheasant]

Okay, so I read the study you suggested (and understood it fine, thanks) but fail to see its relevance in this debate. It does indeed conclude that variation in fecal corticoid concentration could be the result of exposure to predators, however, the article also states that "only the visibility of predators was recorded by keepers" and gives no evidence that olfactory exposure results in stress. As the Clouded Leopards at the RSCC only have olfactory exposure to the Puma (they are in the off-show area whenever the enclosure is inhabited), why you cite THIS study is, to me, a mystery.

Are you sure? It certainly doesn’t sound like you understood the paper:



It really doesn’t get anymore clear-cut than that. At no point was I exclusively referring to olfactory stimuli. If you are naive enough to believe that forced exposure to predators (whether it be olfactory, auditory or visual) does not induce fear behaviour then by all means carry on. I will say there are plenty of papers dealing with this subject in felids and perhaps as much unpublished work.

My point has always been there is no need for that animal to be kept as it is at RSCC. It serves no purpose being there, the exhibit is not suitable for Neofelis so I dread to think what the so called day enclosure looks like.

 

[redpanda]

Are you sure? It certainly doesn’t sound like you understood the paper:


It really doesn’t get anymore clear-cut than that.

As I said, "only the visibility of pedators was recorded by keepers", and that is precisely what this demonstrates. Therefore, as the cats at the RSCC are not visible to one another, your paper is irrelevant - it really doesn't get anymore clear-cut than that.

At no point was I exclusively referring to olfactory stimuli.

Well as you were talking about the rotation system in operation at the RSCC (in which there is only olfactory stimuli), you were exclusively referring to this.

If you are naive enough to believe that forced exposure to predators (whether it be olfactory, auditory or visual) does not induce fear behaviour then by all means carry on. I will say there are plenty of papers dealing with this subject in felids and perhaps as much unpublished work.

I am not naive enough to believe that this irrelevant study strengthens your argument if that's what you mean, in fact I actually think that it strengthens mine. The fact is that virtually all clouded leopards in the zoos included in the study are able to smell other large carnivores as most zoos have several species of cats/bears/wolves etc. As such, if olfactory stimuli did cause as much stress as visual stimuli, then, at the majority of institutions without large predators adjacent to their clouded leopards, the concentration of fecal corticoids would be the same as those with large predators adjacent to their clouded leopards. As this is not the case, then I am forced to conclude the opposite to you - that visual stimuli must cause a great deal more stress than olfactory stimuli and thus, the rotation policy at the RSCC is not the result of stress in either the puma or clouded leopard (at least not as much as if they were housed next to one another).

 

[Tiger Grrl]

Interesting points concerning the Clouded Leopard/Puma issue at RSCC. Can I bring it back to basics?

Of the Secretary of State's Modern Zoo Practice provisions, adapted from the Farm Animal Welfare Advisory Committee, zoos must provide animals

Freedom from discomfort
Freedom to express most normal behaviour
Freedom from fear and distress.

(there are 2 more, and they are worded slightly differently in the SSSMZP document but the principle is the same - look it up. It's an interesting document.)

These 3 are achieved, simply, by providing a suitable environment, space, a comfortable resting area and of course protection from mental stress.

Regardless of the animal's diurnal/circadian rhythm, EVERY animal in captivity should have the luxury of being able to choose whether to go in or out.

RSCC are denying these animals the choice.

 

[kiang]

Hi, could all this feline proximty sub topic, please be taken to another thread, and keep this for RSCC news please.

 

[jwer]

Back on topic, does anyone have any info on the rufous elephant shrews at RSCC? According to sources they still have some (one?) behind the scenes... Does anyone know how many were imported (probably from the USA?), how many are left and if they will be put on show?

 

[EvilKittie]

Back on topic, does anyone have any info on the rufous elephant shrews at RSCC? According to sources they still have some (one?) behind the scenes... Does anyone know how many were imported (probably from the USA?), how many are left and if they will be put on show?

I might be wrong because they had recently imported another animal so i might get the mixed up (either these or the clouded rats) they imported 1.1 breeding pair of which are both still alive off show, they also imported 1.1 of an old pair past breeding age of which 0.1 died shortly after arriving due to a illness (cant remember exactly what) and 1.0 still lives and might come on show.

 

[felidae1]

I would give up peacockpheasant. Its obvious that redpanda is an absolute ********. I'm usually just a lurker here but I have actually just created this account to say as much. Peacockpheasant, Vulpes, Sun Wokong and others have been very gracious and far more patient than they should be with you redpanda. I have been reading this forum for a while now and i find you absolutely unbearable, if i were a moderator you would have been banned a long time ago (You're conduct towards the children who frequent the board is particularly abhorrent).

Here you have changed your argument but your head is so far up your own backside you can’t see it. To me it seems peacockpheasant was disagreeing with your initial statements that “proximity to other cats is not a great disturbance to the leopards” (which you later aknowledge to be an issue but in a fashion which implies you always believed that) and your laughable remark about clouded leopards in the wild.

peacockpheasant didn’t mention olfactory stressors and certainly didn’t say that olfactory stimuli had greater effect than visual.

Your closing remarks about olfactory stimuli and proximity to large predators illustrate how ignorant you are. At the RSCC the animals share the same enclosure. When you draw the following absurd conclusions:

The fact is that virtually all clouded leopards in the zoos included in the study are able to smell other large carnivores as most zoos have several species of cats/bears/wolves etc. As such, if olfactory stimuli did cause as much stress as visual stimuli, then, at the majority of institutions without large predators adjacent to their clouded leopards, the concentration of fecal corticoids would be the same as those with large predators adjacent to their clouded leopards.

You fail to take into account variables such as distance and environmental contaminants which have a strong dilutitive effect on any scent left by animals. More evidence you have no idea what you are talking about.

Before you ask what qualifies me to comment on this case (as you so often do to people) I have personally been responsible for seven clouded leopards 3 of which were born under my care at a private facility in the Middle East . I shouldn’t need to say this but keeping other large cats in the vicinity of clouded leopards DOES STRESS THEM the same can be said of the cheetahs and even striped hyeana. It is recommended by the coordinator that the species be housed as far away as possible from large predators and public viewing be limited with ample hiding opportunities.

So now let me ask you what qualifies you to comment on anything with such authority?
The £90 you have probably spent on being a "keeper for a day"?
Perhaps that ridiculous study at the "Louisville" zoo?
(Which you have never provided a reference for(was it in one of your colouring books??) and now I think about it do Louisville even keep Clouded Leoaprds??)

Someone needed to say this... perhaps now I can go back to lurking and reading the informative posts the vast majority of you contribute.

Also most people sit INFRONT of their computer not behind it, so please stop using that remark it’s getting terribly hackneyed.

 

[Shoebill]

I love you Felidae. Here, here.

 

[peacockpheasant]

I gave up when redpanda began telling me I was "exclusively referring to" the RSCC despite the fact I had made it clear in a previous post I was not.

His/her conclusions were particularly humorous!

 

[Dicerorhinus]

Felidae, I believe you are correct Louisville do not keep neofelis.

I would also like to read this paper they produced. A quick search on web of science turned nothing up!

I have to agree with you his confused and ill-conceived posts are quite amusing...lol

 

[zoogiraffe]

To all those of you that have had a bit of a go at redpanda do any of you actually know how old they are,because if you did i think you would be more that a little surprised.

 

[pinkback]

That rather implies that Red Panda is either pre-pubecent or senile!

 

[felidae1]

With respect zoogiraffe I would guess redpanda be 16 or under. I would also like to say that age isn’t a defence for his/her behaviour and that his/her knowledge while it’s certainly above average doesn’t appear to be exceptional (with age taken into consideration).

redpanda perhaps when you have an opportunity you can share a reference for this “Louisville Zoo Clouded Leopard Study”?

 

[Javan Rhino]

Whilst I'm trying to stay out of major arguements on here (so I'm not taking sides) I just have a quick question (that isn't an attempt to spark anything, just something I'm wondering ). If predators get stressed within close proximity to other predator species (knowing through sight, sound, smell etc), then have other zoos that do this have these problems?

For example, Edinburgh has tigers, jaguars, leopards, pallas cats and wolverines all in a row of enclosures (so very close proximity). From what I know these animals do not attack their mates.

However, one of Chester's Spectacled Bears (from what I've heard) killed their mate once. However, there are no predators anywhere near the bears.

Again, I'm not trying to argue with any studies etc, I just wondered if this has any relevance anywhere in this topic?

 

[Shoebill]

For example, Edinburgh has tigers, jaguars, leopards, pallas cats and wolverines all in a row of enclosures (so very close proximity). From what I know these animals do not attack their mates.

Female leopards are often very aggressive to their mates, compatibility is something quite rare in these cats.

Edinburgh's row of carnivours is less that ideal, however the cats at the bottom of the slope cannot see into the adjacent enclosures. The main issue with this set up is that the old Amur tiger enclosure, now housing jaguars, has a high platform surveying over the entire row. This has caused great stress in the past and is is an awful piece of enclosure design; the carnivour keepers will be first to admit it to you.

 

[Javan Rhino]

Female leopards are often very aggressive to their mates, compatibility is something quite rare in these cats.

Edinburgh's row of carnivours is less that ideal, however the cats at the bottom of the slope cannot see into the adjacent enclosures. The main issue with this set up is that the old Amur tiger enclosure, now housing jaguars, has a high platform surveying over the entire row. This has caused great stress in the past and is is an awful piece of enclosure design; the carnivour keepers will be first to admit it to you.

Ahh cool, thanks for clearing that up . I assume that the cats can still smell/hear the others, but as you've said it is not ideal.

 

[redpanda]

With respect zoogiraffe I would guess redpanda be 16 or under. I would also like to say that age isn’t a defence for his/her behaviour and that his/her knowledge while it’s certainly above average doesn’t appear to be exceptional (with age taken into consideration).

redpanda perhaps when you have an opportunity you can share a reference for this “Louisville Zoo Clouded Leopard Study”?

I was rather hoping to disappear quietly, but apparently this is not going to happen, so be it. In regards to the Louisville study (which indeed has nothing to do with clouded leopards and was used as an example of a successful rotation), I also cannot find a copy on the net as this is not where I read it. However, if you want a reference:

Jane Herndon, 1998. "The Islands Exhibit: Multi-Species, Multi-Solutions through Training" in proceedings addendum, American Association of Zoo Keepers, p. 22-29

I hope this will suffice.

As for your previous post, I do not come to these forums to annoy or upset people but, as this seems to be the case, I apologise and can assure you that your comments have been taken on board. Furthermore, whilst I appreciate zoogiraffe's support, I agree that age is by no means an excuse for one's behaviour. As such, I have never used it as one and likewise expect the same of others, hence my "abhorrent" behaviour towards this forum's younger members (and why I am a great deal more so to some than to others). As for other members being patient with me, I agree wholeheartedly; however, your examples were not the first to spring to mind. Whether this is due to the location of my head or not I am unsure but, either way, I would imagine that those who were know who they are, so thanks to them for making me the "above average" individual that I now am. But anyway, since kiang said several posts ago that this discussion has no place in an RSCC news thread, I think it’s probably best if you return to lurking and enjoying the posts of this site’s more knowledgeable members, and I follow suit.

PS. As there seems to be some confusion (especially on the part of Sun Wukong), I'm male.

 

[peacockpheasant]

Perhaps a moderator would like to divide the topics and create a new thread?

It’s likely I have a physical copy somewhere when I have time I’ll try and dig it out and make a scan available to members of this forum if they are interested.
Without reading it can I ask you what the basis of your argument was? Had you simply substituted tigers for clouded leopards? If so what were you using as the predator they were exposed to (its my understanding that only tigers occupy the complex)? I’m not going to chastise you further just trying to understand how you came to your opinion.