San Diego Zoo San Diego: The Perfect Zoo?
- Thread starter ThylacineAlive
- Start date
-
- Tags
- review san diego san diego zoo
mweb08
Well-Known Member
You don't buy that climate has an effect on exhibits and animal welfare? So why are animals like elephants, rhinos, hippos, giraffes, gorillas, etc often stuck inside areas much worse than their outdoor enclosures for months in northern zoos?
Let's have thylacine break down the winter situation for various warm weather animals at the zoo he thinks is the best. I would be curious to see how that goes considering how critical he was of various San Diego exhibits.
Let's have thylacine break down the winter situation for various warm weather animals at the zoo he thinks is the best. I would be curious to see how that goes considering how critical he was of various San Diego exhibits.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
As you said, @snowleopard is capable of- and finally seems to be- defending his statements, but I think it's fair to point out that his original statement does read that way (at least to me and a few others) and the fact that he made his comment directly after I pointed out various poorer quality exhibit complexes and, until now, he hadn't actually responded to requests asking him to comment on them certainly made it appear as though that is what he was saying.
I will let @jayjds2 defend himself naturally, but I think it's very rude to suggest that he is not as wise as others commenting on this thread, especially considering I don't think he's ever actually accused anyone of calling the zoo perfect.. If fact, no one actually has on this thread, and I think everyone agrees that no zoo is wholly perfect. I think I have to admit that my opening statement was incorrect when I said I'd seen a comment recently stating that the zoo was the only perfect one, and I was misremembering a comment made on the ZooChat Cup Season 2 thread. That comment was one by yourself and can be found here. At the time of reading, your post came across to me that you believed the only flaw the zoo had was a lack of clear physical history, implying that you thought all the enclosures and exhibits were of high enough standard to be considered more or less perfect. I no longer think that's what your believe, though as others have stated it would be very interesting to hear your take on the exhibit flaws pointed out thus far. Going back to your comment, just for clarification as your post there and your post here might come across as contradictory, you think the zoo has a very clear sense of history and pride of it in its publications and overall- for lack of a better term- "feel" but not in an actual physical sense in the way of Bronx having Astor Court?
@mweb08 fair point, and I will make sure I address them shortly
~Thylo
Because the zoos chose to keep them and house them that way. A zoo doesn't have to keep animals that it can't provide adequate welfare for; that's why many northern zoos sent their elephants away. Also, ditto on @m30t's post. Many zoos are capable of building indoor areas that are *not* worse than their outdoor enclosures, but choose not to for whatever reason (most likely cost). So no, climate doesn't affect the exhibits; a zoo's decisions on how to deal with climate affects the exhibits. And that's on them, so I *would* take that into account.
mweb08
Well-Known Member
Perfect. So let's not only take into account how a zoo like The Bronx exhibits animals like gorillas when the weather is decent, but let's factor in how they're held and if they're available to see during the months when they generally aren't outside.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
This thread is all a bit too shoutie for me to be honest! When the topic under discussion is one that can only ever be dealt with subjectively, there is no need for people to get cross with each other, demand replies to points, and exasperatedly thump the table when somebody says something with which they don’t agree. Some think one thing, some think another. And that is not only fine, but the way things should be.
So, very briefly, to clarify – I think, in the earlier thread to which @ThylacineAlive draws attention, the point I was making was that there isn’t a physical sense of the past at San Diego. Nonetheless, there is definitely an awareness of that past, and a happiness to embrace it. I don’t think these two points are contradictory.
As I have said before, San Diego certainly isn’t perfect, and others have pointed to the inadequacies of some areas – I would agree with the criticism of the aye aye enclosure, for example, would have sympathy with the criticism of the giraffe enclosure, but would disagree with the criticism of the map! But, again, these are only opinions.
And, of the top of my head, if I were compiling a list of the things that make the zoo great it would probably include the following:
The brilliant bird collection – and especially the big three aviaries
The reptile house – I realise that other opinions are available, but I loved this building
The exuberant confidence of the place – there is no apologising for being a zoo
The okapi enclosure, and the hippo, and monkeys/otter one nearby
Rather good restaurants
I’m not sure what the proper name is, but the area with monkeys, mainly, close to the entrance – lost forest? Brilliant!
Possibly the best zoo shops I’ve ever seen
The polar bear area
The run of aviaries near the polar bear area
The sense of theatre with which each day starts
I could go on and on, but here is just a gist of what I think is marvellous here.
Finally, in reference to the discussion about climate, surely that has to be a factor. I am currently in Ohio, where the zoos are fantastic. However, the weather just makes visiting them far less pleasant than it might be. It is incredibly hot, and really humid, which makes the animals lethargic, is bad for photography, and makes walking around a zoo less-than-pleasant. Come the winter, and things here are fairly bleak. To have an exhibit such as the Cleveland jungle house thing would be simply unconscionable at San Diego.
So, very briefly, to clarify – I think, in the earlier thread to which @ThylacineAlive draws attention, the point I was making was that there isn’t a physical sense of the past at San Diego. Nonetheless, there is definitely an awareness of that past, and a happiness to embrace it. I don’t think these two points are contradictory.
As I have said before, San Diego certainly isn’t perfect, and others have pointed to the inadequacies of some areas – I would agree with the criticism of the aye aye enclosure, for example, would have sympathy with the criticism of the giraffe enclosure, but would disagree with the criticism of the map! But, again, these are only opinions.
And, of the top of my head, if I were compiling a list of the things that make the zoo great it would probably include the following:
The brilliant bird collection – and especially the big three aviaries
The reptile house – I realise that other opinions are available, but I loved this building
The exuberant confidence of the place – there is no apologising for being a zoo
The okapi enclosure, and the hippo, and monkeys/otter one nearby
Rather good restaurants
I’m not sure what the proper name is, but the area with monkeys, mainly, close to the entrance – lost forest? Brilliant!
Possibly the best zoo shops I’ve ever seen
The polar bear area
The run of aviaries near the polar bear area
The sense of theatre with which each day starts
I could go on and on, but here is just a gist of what I think is marvellous here.
Finally, in reference to the discussion about climate, surely that has to be a factor. I am currently in Ohio, where the zoos are fantastic. However, the weather just makes visiting them far less pleasant than it might be. It is incredibly hot, and really humid, which makes the animals lethargic, is bad for photography, and makes walking around a zoo less-than-pleasant. Come the winter, and things here are fairly bleak. To have an exhibit such as the Cleveland jungle house thing would be simply unconscionable at San Diego.
The Gorillas have perfectly adequate housing over the winter months. Congo gorilla forest has an extensive set of indoor gorilla enclosures (several of which are two stories tall) and total about 6000 sq ft. That is larger than many zoos outdoor gorilla exhibits. The gorillas also have access to a bunch of outdoor yards off exhibit as well, that are used as long as temperatures are high enough.
The gorillas can be seen through a single window over the winter, yet the zoo decided in planning that since they felt the indoor gorilla exhibits would always be more functional than naturalistic, they did not include extensive indoor viewing.
Here are the floorplans of congo:
Congo Gorilla Forest : DesignShare Projects
No one's not taking that into account
Bronx has quite possibly the best gorilla exhibit in the world with only a few coming anywhere close. They are available to be seen during the winter months as a small portion of the generally off-show indoor housing is made viewable. The small section the public can see is better than most indoor housing I've seen with there being no concrete flooring and plenty of climbing opportunities. The main problem with it is that it's a pretty small area, but my understanding is that the animals have access to other rooms off-view from the public at all times and I've never seen more than three gorillas in there at a time.~Thylo
mweb08
Well-Known Member
Perfectly adequate and arguably the best gorilla exhibit in the world are very different.
I'm not saying they don't do a fine job dealing with the climate, but certainly many of their animals don't have it as good in the winter as they do in the warmer months.
We also have to look at the fact that certain species do better in Northern climates than in San Diego Species like reindeer, polar bear, giant panda, amur leopard, red panda, takin, and snow leopard all are exhibited at San Diego; yet naturally are more comfortable at cooler temperatures. When I was in San Diego two years ago I saw the zoo take steps with misters to help these species, yet specifically the Red Panda, Takin & Snow Leopard were visibly not coping well with the intense heat that day. So every climate naturally prefers certain species, it just turns out most of the ABC animals we know are warm weather based.
Perfect has a rather specific meaning. Which is why no zoo can ever be so.
As a self professed zoo nerd I really go to zoos for two reasons. 1 to see new species and 2 to view how species are exhibited. I really don't care if I see lions or tigers or even elephants etc, but of course most zoo goers feel much differently.
Which zoo is better than others is fairly subjective about sometimes objective
issues (number of species, how they reproduce etc). Like sports or literature my favorite zoo may not be "the best" but it will always be my favorite.
I didn't mean to imply zoos with better climates were better zoos. But the subject is...the perfect zoo, thus all factors must...be perfect. And even San Diego's weather falls short of that. But Hell even perfect can be boring. If someone devised "the perfect" habitat for lions, then eventually all lion exhibits would all look the same.
As a self professed zoo nerd I really go to zoos for two reasons. 1 to see new species and 2 to view how species are exhibited. I really don't care if I see lions or tigers or even elephants etc, but of course most zoo goers feel much differently.
Which zoo is better than others is fairly subjective about sometimes objective
issues (number of species, how they reproduce etc). Like sports or literature my favorite zoo may not be "the best" but it will always be my favorite.
I didn't mean to imply zoos with better climates were better zoos. But the subject is...the perfect zoo, thus all factors must...be perfect. And even San Diego's weather falls short of that. But Hell even perfect can be boring. If someone devised "the perfect" habitat for lions, then eventually all lion exhibits would all look the same.
And certainly many animals don't have it as good in the summer months in drier, hotter climates when they're native to a rainforest but are sitting outdoors all day in a grassy field with little to no shade cover... (not a particular dig at SDZ, more of a counterargument for southwestern zoos in general).
I meant the outdoor yards and the overall exhibit is arguably the best in the world. As I stated the indoor housing is better than what most zoos give their animals so would it be better if they could be outside year-round? Of course, but that doesn't mean they aren't getting just as good of care and quality of life being mostly indoors for part of the year. Have you ever read about the Aspinall gorilla cages? There are a good few people who'd contend those are the best gorilla habitats in the world, and I think they have some of the best breeding records.
~Thylo
mweb08
Well-Known Member
No one's not taking that into account
~Thylo
In all the zoo reviews and analysis I've seen on here, I've very rarely seen winter exhibits/ holdings considered. It seems that zoos generally are reviewed and analyzed with non cold weather in mind.
The gorilla exhibit is a great example (and see my prior post to see that I wasn't bashing their indoor setting). When it is being discussed as one of the best exhibits in the world on here (and it is world class), there doesn't seem to be any consideration to it being very far from great for what, about a third of the year?
But I was just using the gorillas as an example, we can do this with the elephants, giraffes, etc and a plethora of other animals at the Bronx and many other zoos.
mweb08
Well-Known Member
Yes, many southwestern zoos have weather problems as well. San Diego less so than others and less so than possibly any other zoo in the country, which gives them a leg up in year round exhibitry and animal welfare.
I'm not saying the gorillas aren't cared for properly during the winter, but it's not the ideal. The ideal is their outdoor enclosure.
Obviously if they were in their indoor enclosure year round (and same with the other animals that are outside during decent weather), then that exhibit wouldn't be lauded. So since that's the case for a significant amount of time, that's a negative to me because if I or anyone else visit the zoo when it's colder, the exhibit and the whole zoo just wouldn't be as good or enjoyable.
In conclusion, surely no one would say The Bronx is the best zoo in the country if how it is on a 30 degree day is how it is all the time.
I'm sorry if you felt our riveting debate was obnoxious or unnecessary. Of course the topic can only be dealt with subjectively, and of course people will disagree and hold different opinions and that is a good thing. But this is a forum, and we are having a discussion. Challenging viewpoints and having your own viewpoints challenged is a healthy way to develop one's critical thinking and worldly perspectives, and that's why I do it. FWIW, I'm fine with retiring from the climate issue now, as I think I've contributed what I can to that conversation without sounding repetitive.
I think you’re misinterpreting my Saint Louis comment. I was simply stating that good weather usually makes for a better visitor experience. This I think we can all agree is true. Weather can however, contribute to a persons opinions on a zoo (whether this is fair or not I’ve yet to decide), as with good weather animals tend to be out and active more(in my experiences), which definitely makes the zoo more appealing in my books. I’ve honestly wondered how much I’d like San Diego if the weather was dreadful on my visit, and I think I’d like it a lot less.
Of course getting pleasant weather in San Diego is more likely than a a bomb threat or seeing Jane Goodall
.While zoos can of course not choose their climate, they can play to its strengths (The Living Desert does this splendidly, @Coelacanth18 have you been there?), and I think San Diego does this well, as evidenced by their tropical planting’s and almost entirely outside zoo. I think you agree with this statement of using climate to your advantage, correct?
mweb08
Well-Known Member
Fair point, but it actually gets worse in the summer for animals like that in NYC.
sooty mangabey
Well-Known Member
Oh, no - I thoroughly welcome and enjoy disagreement. But the passive aggression and grumpiness- of which the quotation here is an example - is something else. Nobody wants to be shouted at, in the ‘real’ world or the online world. That’s all.
I get the whole "...and the beautiful weather!" argument in favor of San Diego. However, I feel the following climate discussion has been a bit simplistic so far. Particularly, I wouldn't agree, that a subtropical climate is by definition the best zoo climate. A well planted, well designed zoo in a temperate zone with seasons - spring, summer, fall, winter - can make the seasons a real strength. Days with newly fallen snow can offer some of the best zoo experiences out there, with very active animals exploring their transformed habitats and playing in the snow (and typically very few other visitors). Spring blossoms and fall colors are also an extravaganza a zoo like San Diego simply cannot offer. Moreover, the seasons can offer a 'tropical' experience in summer and an 'arctic' one in winter, thus a temperate zoo is arguably much better suited to represent outdoors the diversity of biomes of our planet. While some (justifiably) lament what they perceive as (in)adequate indoor winter housing for tropical species in temperate zoos, I personally took issue with e.g. the polar bears at San Diego, which are housed absolutely inadequately climate-wise year round. Furthermore, hot & sunny days typically offer the kinds of conditions that will see the least active animals for most species, save reptiles. Finally, some of the most revered zoo enclosures are indoor enclosures that could or would not be built in more southerly climes.
Last edited: