I imagine that's an outdated page written years ago. Apart from maybe one or two singletons, the park is no longer keeping them. The animals sent to Bronx have begun breeding again.
~Thylo
San Diego Zoo Safari Park San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance and downsizing hoofstock
- Thread starter geomorph
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I imagine that's an outdated page written years ago. Apart from maybe one or two singletons, the park is no longer keeping them. The animals sent to Bronx have begun breeding again.
~Thylo
This would put Bronx at around 30 animals right? I can’t see how this program survives unless they either get new institutions in to hold another breeding herd or get places like Miami/Gladys Porter to breed them. Miami only has 2, but could hold a small herd.
With the San Diego additions and births from over the last year, the zoo should have around 30 animals now, yes. Miami has a pair and Gladys Porter has a small herd, and I've heard conflicting reports on whether Omaha still has some kept at their off-site facility or not as well, but afaik nobody else is breeding them atm. The population sits between 40-50 animals total, so there really is a chance for them (that's a lot more than some SSP programs number!) but without commitment from other institutions it's unlikely the population will survive long-term. It's really a crying shame that SDZSP has ended their program with the species, as they are a unique, highly endangered species. I know the park has a much closer relationship with Banteng and the international program for that species, though, so maybe the move makes sense. Still, with the EAZA recommending Gaur be replaced with Banteng, too, and with the Banteng program being successfully managed across four continents, the Gaur really seems to be getting the short end of the stick.
~Thylo
The last USDA report from May 2019 had Omaha with 20 gaur at the safari park. Gladys porter had 5 as of last week. I can imagine that the gaur and banteng may not mix well, so this move may allow San Diego to expand its banteng program into all of the Asian field exhibits. The Bronx Zoo seems really committed to the species so it can hang on, but it won't be sustainable or anything. I also cannot see how many more gaur the zoo can hold, especially given that with 30ish gaur they are still breeding.
Sadly I think most, if not all of the Omaha Gaur are bachelor males... But still, it's something. Glad to hear GPZ still has a good number of them! Bronx does seem very committed to them and I do hope they continue on with the program for as long as they can. Capacity is my question, too, though I wonder more about the off-exhibit space rather than the enclosure itself as the herd doesn't come close to filling in their massive yard. Of course, idk if the zoo manages them all as one big herd or not.
~Thylo
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
It’s possible that SDZSP is phasing out some of their hoofstock and sending them elsewhere because the new Saint Louis Zoo WildCare Park is planning on reserving a significant portion of the 420-acre campus specifically to hoofstock in particular. My sources tell me that it’s not going to have a lot of things that SDZSP has, like big cats, but focus very much on both amphibians and endangered ruminants. The park will not open until 2026 but they are putting in place the structures for specific groups of herbivores right now.
I fail to see why that would influence the current actions of the newer SDZSP management. It's excellent that St. Louis is planning on dedicating so much space and resources to hoofstock but with SDZSP being vital in the continued propagation of multiple species, including some in AZA programs, a different breeding center opening halfway across the nation in five years (without delays, which are likely inevitable) in a state that may have much stricter CWD regulations than California (does St. Louis or any Missouri zoo keep deer species?) won't help the viability of these populations nor does it make sense for one zoo to 'clean house' as it were just because another zoo is wanting to keep similar animals.
~Thylo
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
You’re right, but there is only so much space in so many zoos and wildlife facilities, and there are thousands of imperiled species in need of ex-situ conservation. STL is just as reputable, if not moreso, than SDZ in terms of their conservation efforts. Both zoos are the gold-standard in this country. If they reached some sort of agreement where STL decided specifically to focus on one branch of the phylogenetic tree that SDZSP is perhaps currently financially unable to sustain, or no longer wants to sustain, why should they not cooperate? That’s how AZA programs work. Just because SDZ isn’t managing an AZA plan or population doesn’t mean another facility cannot do it just as well, if not better. I do not know why SDZSP is “cleaning house,” as it were. I’m guessing it has something to do with the pandemic and financial resources, but that’s just a guess. I’m merely suggesting that if they do “clean house,” not all hope is lost for the species they choose to send elsewhere.
Moreover, the STL zoo currently has the one of the largest, if not the largest, collection of hoofstock in the country of any zoo. Give them credit where credit is due.
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That is how AZA programs work, except that is clearly not what is happening here. It's no secret that most ex-San Diego stock for ungulates goes to non-AZA places, sometimes even the private trade. Once that happens, they're removed from the programs forever in most cases. Now I don't know where SDZSP has been sending any of their latest departures other than in a few select examples (Gaur for instance) and obviously many have moved to AZA zoos, but this isn't inter-institutional cooperation. Cooperation is what was happening before, where SDZSP and either many or a select few other zoos would all cooperatively manage a population. Dropping a bunch of species you've been largely successful with when you clearly have the resources and space to continue on and leaving the pressure on other zoos isn't cooperation, it's just phasing animals out of the collection. Now the reasons for this aren't necessarily bad, and you said not all hope is lost for those taxa inherently; however, this is still a massive blow to these programs as SDZSP has always been the main breeding institution for quite a good number of programs.
I'm not sure what the thousands of imperiled species comment is for, as we're not talking about thousands of imperiled species, we're talking about a few dozen at most altogether. I'm also not sure where the claim that STL is both the gold-standard for conservation and the largest holder of ungulates in the country comes from, as neither statements are at all close to true. Idk how involved the zoo is in conservation, but the top two zoos in the country afaik are Bronx and San Diego. Both of those zoos (as well as the safari park and many other zoos in the US) have much larger ungulate collections than STL as well, though STL does have a good sized collection of quite rare species.
I'm not attempting to take any credit away from STL as an institution. I've never been (stupid COVID) but they're a renowned collection worldwide (albeit more for their herp department) and they clearly do some great work with ex-situ conservation. I'm thrilled to hear they're dedicating so much to largely underappreciated animals like most ungulates and amphibians, too, I'm just saying I don't see there being any through line between the park choosing to phase-out a number of their previously priority programs today and STL planning to open a new location with a number of taxa of the same general animal group half a decade into the future from now.
~Thylo
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
I have been to all three zoos, many, many times. And you will never, ever be able to convince me that SDZ or Bronx are better zoos than STL. All have their strengths and weaknesses, but in terms of balancing the collection and the conservation efforts, IMHO STL is far-and-away #1. Has been since Bonner took over in 2002. Omaha, Bronx, and SDZ all tie for second. Anything SDZ or SDZSP is doing now, STL can and will do better. You will never change my mind. Maybe you should visit first, before you write it off as inferior to San Diego or New York’s facilities.
That said, I had no idea that the animals at SDZSP were not being sent to other AZA-accredited institutions. That is a downright shame. You are probably quite right that the new STL facility has no link to what is happening at SDZSP, and I’m sorry to hear that it is happening. If you find anything else out, it would be great to know more about their situation. I suggested it might possibly be related because I know from internal sources that STL is working to secure several endangered ungulate populations right *now*, not in 2026 when the park opens, so they can have stable breeding populations in place for a few years to monitor them first before necessarily finishing all the glamping facilities/treehouses/amphibian house that will be open to the public. Only 1/3 of the park will be a “safari;” the remaining 2/3 will be entirely conservation-based with no public access.
And no ill-will intended, either; I just will rightly defend my zoo as the best on the continent for as long as I think it deserves that honor. I lived in NYC for many years, and visited Bronx hundreds of times. My nephew lives in San Diego and we go every time I visit. Both are great. STL is just a class above them, in my opinion.
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While San Diego has the advantage of being in a temperate location conducive to growing palms, ficus and orchids among thousands of other tropical plants, and Bronx has the advantage of having had innovative exhibit design in the past as well as visionary directors like Bill Conway and even William T. Hornaday, Saint Louis has one thing that the other two don't - balancing a fine collection with updated exhibitry. Based off of what I've seen on Streetview because of the rona, Saint Louis has some of the most consistent exhibit design in a zoo, in that even when transitioning from a modern exhibit with immersive elements to a more historically designed exhibit nestled in classic architecture (i.e. from River's Edge to Historic Hill), the transition feels natural. It also has one of the finest collections, and even has the cojones to maintain one of the finest hoofstock collections in any AZA zoo. San Diego has a sort of "lack" of consistency, as there are truly great zones (Lost Forest, Africa Rocks and hopefully Discovery Outpost with the new Children's Zoo), some mishmashes with truly great exhibit complexes within them (Asian Passage with Sun Bear Forest, Northern Frontier with Polar Bear Plunge), a guilty pleasure (Elephant Odyssey) and exhibit complexes that are just... what. (Panda Canyon and Urban Jungle). I would love to have visited Bronx in what I consider to be its prime (before World of Darkness closed, thanks Mini Mike). Bronx tries to play it half and half using old buildings for completely new purposes (the Lion House for Madagascar, the Elephant House for Zoo Center (when really it's just a glorified komodo dragon habitat and white rhino stall, no discernable theme), the Bird House for Admin, and the Monkey House for, well, cobwebs at this point. And white-faced capuchins IIRC.) IDK, I think this'll probably be the last post I make in this topic before it gets switched back to news, so... yeah.
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Seems like the post by @ThylacineAlive may have been taken out of context. I think he was referring to San Diego and Bronx compared to St. Louis as leaders in terms of conservation programs rather than overall zoo quality. Just for the record, while funding isn't a perfect proxy it gives a general sense. Bronx (WCS) has conservation/research expenditures of more than $120 million per year, San Diego is at about $30 million, and St. Louis is at about $1 million. As for ungulate species numbers, SDZSP is around 50, Bronx and SDZ are in the low 30s, and STL is in the low 20s.
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
Could you give a source for those numbers? Because I know for a fact that the STL figures are incorrect, although I cannot vouch for the other two zoos.
This is a very common situation across all AZA zoos with surplus. All kinds of things end up non-AZA this way.
While I cannot find any specific numbers on St. Louis's site, I highly doubt a free admission zoo is outdoing the WCS and SDZ Global in terms of money put towards conservation.
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imaginarius
Well-Known Member
The zoo can charge free admission because every St. Louis and St. Louis County resident (about 1.4 million people, out of a metro of 3 million) must pay taxes to the zoo every year as part of living in STL. It was a bill passed in the 1970s, and sustains the zoo, as well as the art museum, history museum, and botanical gardens. Everything else the zoo does — new exhibits, conservation, etc. — is from private donations, and there are a tonnnnn of very deep pockets from old money families that give millions to the zoo on a yearly basis. Anheuser-Busch alone gives tens of millions every year. Their donor base is ridiculously generous.
I've split what turned out to be most of the posts of the 2021 San Diego News thread into this separate thread, as it had got way off track from news about the zoo and into downsizing of hoofstock and conservation budgets of different zoos.
I'd like to make it abundantly clear that I am not here to 1) "write-off" any zoo for any reason, especially when I haven't visited yet (and therefore don't think I have ever made any remark about it aside from what I predict my impressions will be, which have had no basis on my posts in this thread whatsoever), and 2) start another debate on which zoos are better than others.
STL seems like a solid zoo with a great collection, and I am hopeful that they will continue on with rare ungulates in the future. I am also happy to hear that they're apparently prepared to take on some new programs more immediately than I previously thought. Neither of these things change the fact that, to my knowledge, the WCS and the player-formerly-known-as San Diego Global are the number 1 & 2 financial contributors to in- and ex-situ conservation in the country (which isn't an insult to the good work STL itself does!) nor that SDZSP has had a change in leadership on multiple levels and now several of their formerly dedicated hoofstock programs are being ended, leading me to believe that there is a correlation and that I think this is overall bad for the health of several potentially sustainable populations. The latter of these two facts is what the intention of my posting here was, and that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I think Bronx, San Diego, or St. Louis are the better zoo.
I appreciate your helping clarify matters and your contribution with financial figures. As for the number of ungulate species, the following is what I had from my ever-delayed US hoofstock thread project:
SDZSP - 68 taxa*
Bronx - 33
SDZ - 32
STL - 19
There are several other zoos in the high teens and 20+ clubs as well.
*subject to change based on newer developments
If anyone has any updates on these numbers, please feel free to PM me so I can update my data (and to prevent further disruption of the thread topic). Cheers
~Thylo
STL seems like a solid zoo with a great collection, and I am hopeful that they will continue on with rare ungulates in the future. I am also happy to hear that they're apparently prepared to take on some new programs more immediately than I previously thought. Neither of these things change the fact that, to my knowledge, the WCS and the player-formerly-known-as San Diego Global are the number 1 & 2 financial contributors to in- and ex-situ conservation in the country (which isn't an insult to the good work STL itself does!) nor that SDZSP has had a change in leadership on multiple levels and now several of their formerly dedicated hoofstock programs are being ended, leading me to believe that there is a correlation and that I think this is overall bad for the health of several potentially sustainable populations. The latter of these two facts is what the intention of my posting here was, and that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I think Bronx, San Diego, or St. Louis are the better zoo.
I appreciate your helping clarify matters and your contribution with financial figures. As for the number of ungulate species, the following is what I had from my ever-delayed US hoofstock thread project:
SDZSP - 68 taxa*
Bronx - 33
SDZ - 32
STL - 19
There are several other zoos in the high teens and 20+ clubs as well.
*subject to change based on newer developments
If anyone has any updates on these numbers, please feel free to PM me so I can update my data (and to prevent further disruption of the thread topic). Cheers
~Thylo
Data on expenditure types can usually be obtained from financial reports. Here's 2019:
St. Louis - see pg 29 https://www.stlzoo.org/download_file/view_inline/9212/152
San Diego - see pg 6 https://zoo.sandiegozoo.org/sites/default/files/2020-04/ZoologicalSocietyofSanDiegodbaSanDiegoZooGlobal(Basic Report).pdf
WCS/Bronx - see pg 5 (numbered as pg 4) https://c532f75abb9c1c021b8c-e46e47...qn9_Audited_Financial_Statements_2019_WCS.pdf
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
I'd like to make it abundantly clear that I am not here to 1) "write-off" any zoo for any reason, especially when I haven't visited yet (and therefore don't think I have ever made any remark about it aside from what I predict my impressions will be, which have had no basis on my posts in this thread whatsoever), and 2) start another debate on which zoos are better than others.
STL seems like a solid zoo with a great collection, and I am hopeful that they will continue on with rare ungulates in the future. I am also happy to hear that they're apparently prepared to take on some new programs more immediately than I previously thought. Neither of these things change the fact that, to my knowledge, the WCS and the player-formerly-known-as San Diego Global are the number 1 & 2 financial contributors to in- and ex-situ conservation in the country (which isn't an insult to the good work STL itself does!) nor that SDZSP has had a change in leadership on multiple levels and now several of their formerly dedicated hoofstock programs are being ended, leading me to believe that there is a correlation and that I think this is overall bad for the health of several potentially sustainable populations. The latter of these two facts is what the intention of my posting here was, and that has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not I think Bronx, San Diego, or St. Louis are the better zoo.
I appreciate your helping clarify matters and your contribution with financial figures. As for the number of ungulate species, the following is what I had from my ever-delayed US hoofstock thread project:
SDZSP - 68 taxa*
Bronx - 33
SDZ - 32
STL - 19
There are several other zoos in the high teens and 20+ clubs as well.
*subject to change based on newer developments
If anyone has any updates on these numbers, please feel free to PM me so I can update my data (and to prevent further disruption of the thread topic). Cheers
~Thylo
I appreciate the post, I thought you were belittling STL as a facility and now I see in hindsight that I was incorrect. However, your ungulate number for the facility is wrong; I visited the zoo today, in fact, and counted myself 31 hoofstock in their collection on display. So your hoofstock project numbers need to be corrected. I can provide a list of specific taxa if you would like that, as well.