I'm not trying to be rude or second guess you here but 19 to 31 is a massive jump so could you name the species?
San Diego Zoo Safari Park San Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance and downsizing hoofstock
- Thread starter geomorph
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Only speaking for myself, I would be interested in seeing your full list
Their website only lists 18 wild ungulate species, so even one less than Thylo said.
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
I'm not a taxonomist, so I can't tell you which subspecies some of these are (I just wrote down what the signage said for them). The Addra gazelle had no signage for some reason, but was in Antelope Yards with most of the other hoofstock. Most of the domesticated ones are off-display (formerly found in the now-closed Children's Zoo), but I was able to see them because I know one of the keepers and he was kind enough to let me behind-the-scenes for a bit. They've dismantled most of the structures that were there, but no dinosaurs yet (they're temporarily "reimagining" the space as Dinoroarus, a dinosaur exhibit, while they plan a new future exhibit in its place). I don't know when and/or if they will send the animals currently cared for behind-the-scenes to other facilities, he couldn't tell me. Anyway, here's what I saw today:
1. Addax (Addax nasomaculatus)
2. Addra gazelle (Nanger dama)
3. Alpaca (Vicugna pacos)
4. Asian elephant (Elephas maximus)
5. Babirusa (Babyrousa celebensis)
6. Bactrian camel (Camelus bactrianus)
7. Banteng (Bos javanicus)
8. Central Chinese goral (Naemorhedus griseus)
9. Common eland (Taurotragus oryx)
10. Domestic goat (Capra aegagrus hircus)
11. Domestic pig (Sus scrofa domesticus)
12. Domestic sheep (Ovis aries)
13. Donkey (Equus africanus asinus)
14. Dwarf zebu (Bos primigenius indicus)
15. Eastern black rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis michaeli)
16. Gerenuk (Litocranius walleri walleri)
17. Grévy's zebra (Equus grevyi)
18. Horse (Equus ferus caballus)
19. Lesser kudu (Tragelaphus imberbis)
20. Llama (Lama glama)
21. Nile hippopotamus (Hippopotamus amphibius)
22. Okapi (Okapia johnstoni)
23. Red river hog (Potamochoerus porcus)
24. Reticulated giraffe (Giraffa camelopardalis reticulata)
25. Sichuan takin (Budorcas taxicolor tibetana)
26. Soemmerring's gazelle (Nanger soemmerringii)
27. Somali wild ass (Equus africanus somaliensis)
28. Speke's gazelle (Gazella spekei)
29. Transcaspian urial (Ovis vignei arkal)
30. Vicuña? (Vicugna vicugna) (unsure of species)
31. Visayan warty pig (Sus cebifrons)
Moreover, while the zoo doesn't currently have any scimitar-horned oryx, my friend did say that one of their conservation institutes (Saharan Wildlife Recovery Center) is currently spending a lot of effort on helping to reintroduce Middle Eastern-born scimitar-horned oryx to protected areas in Chad, and they also are spending money protecting Cuvier's, slender-horned, and addra gazelles in north and western Africa. Anyway, hope the list helps!
1. Addax (Addax nasomaculatus)
2. Addra gazelle (Nanger dama)
3. Alpaca (Vicugna pacos)
4. Asian elephant (Elephas maximus)
5. Babirusa (Babyrousa celebensis)
6. Bactrian camel (Camelus bactrianus)
7. Banteng (Bos javanicus)
8. Central Chinese goral (Naemorhedus griseus)
9. Common eland (Taurotragus oryx)
10. Domestic goat (Capra aegagrus hircus)
11. Domestic pig (Sus scrofa domesticus)
12. Domestic sheep (Ovis aries)
13. Donkey (Equus africanus asinus)
14. Dwarf zebu (Bos primigenius indicus)
15. Eastern black rhinoceros (Diceros bicornis michaeli)
16. Gerenuk (Litocranius walleri walleri)
17. Grévy's zebra (Equus grevyi)
18. Horse (Equus ferus caballus)
19. Lesser kudu (Tragelaphus imberbis)
20. Llama (Lama glama)
21. Nile hippopotamus (Hippopotamus amphibius)
22. Okapi (Okapia johnstoni)
23. Red river hog (Potamochoerus porcus)
24. Reticulated giraffe (Giraffa camelopardalis reticulata)
25. Sichuan takin (Budorcas taxicolor tibetana)
26. Soemmerring's gazelle (Nanger soemmerringii)
27. Somali wild ass (Equus africanus somaliensis)
28. Speke's gazelle (Gazella spekei)
29. Transcaspian urial (Ovis vignei arkal)
30. Vicuña? (Vicugna vicugna) (unsure of species)
31. Visayan warty pig (Sus cebifrons)
Moreover, while the zoo doesn't currently have any scimitar-horned oryx, my friend did say that one of their conservation institutes (Saharan Wildlife Recovery Center) is currently spending a lot of effort on helping to reintroduce Middle Eastern-born scimitar-horned oryx to protected areas in Chad, and they also are spending money protecting Cuvier's, slender-horned, and addra gazelles in north and western Africa. Anyway, hope the list helps!
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imaginarius
Well-Known Member
Only speaking for myself, I would be interested in seeing your full list
I understand your skepticism. Their website is always notoriously out-of-date, and the Children's Zoo animals have been removed from the site entirely. The Herpetarium itself has over 100 snake species alone, and yet the site only lists about 30 of them! It is frustrating, to be sure.
Vicuña? When did STL get vicuña? I thought southwick’s was the only holder of this species on the continent?
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
That's the only one I wasn't entirely sure about. The alpacas were behind-the-scenes with the other Children's Zoo animals, they had what looked like two vicuñas nearby. I may have been wrong about what they were, I am not an ungulate expert. It is very possible they were something else, there was no signage. I tried my best to list what they have, I will admit I may have been mistaken.
I apologize for derailing this thread, which is entirely about San Diego and not Saint Louis. I do have a pertinent question, though: if San Diego Diego Zoo Wildlife Alliance, formerly Zoo Global, runs both facilities, does the management of each zoo report directly to the overarching non-profit, and are the management teams of each composed of entirely different people? I am very unfamiliar with the corporate structure.
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Well, that is what I asked for
Well I can see one issue we're having with our number differences, my thread doesn't include domesticated animals for the most part. If we add those, all aforementioned zoos numbers increase by similar amounts, more or less. Additionally, elephants aren't ungulates and therefore haven't been counted as such. The only wild species listed that I'm skeptical about are eland and Vicugna. I haven't been able to find any evidence of eland at the zoo and they definitely do not keep Vicugna, which is only kept by Southwick's. Other than that, I have all of those species listed, which brings the zoo to 19
Again, if you'd like to discuss further feel free to PM me.EDIT: The list provided minus domestics, elephant, Vicugna, and eland puts them at 18, but they also have nyala which puts them at 19.
~Thylo
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The diference in numbers seems to largely be that you're counting domestics, which we generally don't do when discussing numbers since they have no value. You have 9-10 domestics listed, bringing the number down to 21.
The Alliance itself has a directed, who oversees the entire organizations and therefore both zoos to an extent. However, both parks also have their own individual directors who are in charge of running solely their respective collection. Both the Zoo and Safari Park have their own separate management teams as well. It is the Alliance and the Safari Park which have received rather new, somewhat controversial directors.
~Thylo
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I wonder if STL will do the same when their safari park opens: establish an overarching non-profit like San Diego and New York have, under which both facilities operate. Are San Diego Zoo's ungulates largely of different taxa than those found in the safari park? Or do they overlap? And hypothetically, is it more advantageous for the safari park to focus on species at the zoo itself, thereby ensuring a healthy population for the long-term (albeit for fewer taxa), or to use the vast space available in the park to focus on other taxa that the zoo cannot accommodate?
The Zoo and Safari Park mostly have different taxa although there is some overlap with animals like Lion for popularity reasons or California Condors for breeding reasons. But mostly the Safari Park and Zoo have always had different species it's just become more extreme with the move of many of the zoos ungulates to the Safari Park.
Because of the zoo's lack of flat space, I believe the organization finds it more advantageous for the Safari Park to work on roaming/hearding Ungulates while the zoo works on smaller species that can maneuver hills and steeper terrain. Some populations like Gorillas have their own groups at both parks. So it's really mixed on what terrain and how much space do the animals need.
Off the top of my head, Masai Giraffe, Giant Eland, Southern Gerenuk, Black Duiker, Yellow-Backed Duiker, North Sulawesi Babirusa, Grevy's Zebra, and Indian Rhinoceros are all the ungulate species the two parks share.
~Thylo
~Thylo
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
I have been to the San Diego Zoo many times, but have never been able to make it out to the Safari Park. It's definitely on my bucket list after I get vaccinated; would love to drive up the coast and see Monterey Bay Aquarium again, too. As far as downsizing of collections goes, I fear that that is happening almost everywhere, not just with San Diego. Saint Louis had over 650 species and 19,000 animals just three years ago, 555/13,000 in 2020 and now, their site only lists 500/12,000. I haven't kept detailed lists year-to-year so I cannot tell you what has been phased out, but that's a significant drop. Many are from the Children's Zoo, but I fear most are probably from the Insectarium. Bugs get no love 
My friends in New York have told me that Bronx Zoo has fewer species than it used to, as well.
My friends in New York have told me that Bronx Zoo has fewer species than it used to, as well.
Also Okapi, Nubian Ibex, Chacoan Peccary, Red River Hog and maybe a Camel species
It is really sad that zoos are downsizing their collections and most zoos I know are doing it. San Diego's new Children's zoo might help restore some of the Zoos glory but we are really going to have to wait until the new section the zoo will do after their elephant exhibit at the Safari Park. As for other zoos, the only other zoo I can think of that is upgrading their collections in a major way is the Los Angeles Zoo but that will take years. I believe this can be attributed to new AZA standards meaning zoos need to make more space for fewer animals. It sucks but it's necessary for good animal welfare. That's why the establishment of Safari Parks that run under zoos is so important. They can be placed in the middle of nowhere where there is land but not have to worry about attracting visitors because they can rely on the larger zoo's name and money. So this allows for rare larger species of animals to be held. Now, this makes San Diegos Guar's move worse. Guars, unlike bantengs, require large amounts of land to thrive. I believe they have missed the point entirely of their Safari Park.
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
It does suck. I understand that zoos only have so many resources, and they want to improve QoL for the species they keep, so it is inevitable in some ways. I know California has had some very strict rules about reopening, more so than many other states. Are the two facilities even open to the public yet? I most likely won't make it out there until the summer, but just curious. I imagine being closed for so long has been a financial disaster for them, as it has for most other zoos. I know Monterey Bay Aquarium has been closed for almost a year now, and still doesn't know when they'll reopen. They're an indoor aquarium, of course, so the rules might be different there.
Yes, both San Diego facilities are open because they are outdoors and considered educational facilities. Monterey won't open for a while because it's indoors.
I have been to the San Diego Zoo many times, but have never been able to make it out to the Safari Park. It's definitely on my bucket list after I get vaccinated; would love to drive up the coast and see Monterey Bay Aquarium again, too. As far as downsizing of collections goes, I fear that that is happening almost everywhere, not just with San Diego. Saint Louis had over 650 species and 19,000 animals just three years ago, 555/13,000 in 2020 and now, their site only lists 500/12,000. I haven't kept detailed lists year-to-year so I cannot tell you what has been phased out, but that's a significant drop. Many are from the Children's Zoo, but I fear most are probably from the Insectarium. Bugs get no love
It’s a small note but the Bronx Zoo does not have less species now than it did in the past 40 years. I quickly compared the 1982 and 2016 census of the zoo and the species numbers are pretty close. In the early 2000’s the zoos collection definetly shrunk but especially for birds it has expanded in recent years. This does not even include the city zoos, which hold many species not kept at the Bronx Zoo.
imaginarius
Well-Known Member
Noted. I’m just going by what friends have said, I haven’t lived there in years. And I consider all the NYC zoos separate facilities, because they are, even though they are under one conservation umbrella. Moreover, STL had the largest collection it has ever had in 2016, at over 650; in the five years since, that has dwindled to 500. I think the downsizing is a much more recent phenomenon than 2016, if posts of others on here indicating similar trends elsewhere are to be believed.
I mean yes they are separate zoos, but no more separate than San Diego and the San Diego Zoo Safari Park. They have an integrated collection plan so in reality these days they are largely extensions of each-other with specializations.They aren’t just under a conservation umbrella, thats in my opinion a narrow way to look at their interconnectedness.