Sea snakes

[Batto]

As for the bite case you've now quoted twice, @temp: I assume that both bite and treatment happened in closer proximity to a larger urban area (i.e. city or larger town), not in the middle of rural nowhere?

 

[temp]

@Batto
Yes it did, however the antivenom was still not that close. It was flown in from Karolinska by the airforce. They didn't want to take the risk of delays by ordinary transport. According to a persistent but unconfirmed rumor the airforce transport actually ended up being much more expensive than the antivenom, despite the need for several doses. There are three primary centers for antivenom in Scandinavia, split into three countries (note that entire Scandinavia only has a combined population of c.20 million). Except for the most common there is limited overlap, but the medical services cooperation closely, allowing easy exchange if needed.

An ongoing project by scientists and medical companies in Copenhagen (also involving Oxford) where they are trying to develope effecient recombinant antivenoms for a range of species means that there actually has been a rise of availability in the region recently, but that may not last and likely depends on the longevity of the project.

 

[Batto]

Thanks for the info, @temp, but this incident actually underlines that your previous assumption

For example, antivenom for pretty much everything (mambas, rattlesnakes, etc) is widely stocked at centers throughout Europe.

is not up to date / completely correct.

Even with efficient collaboration and relatively managable human populations, three main centers for four countries aren't what I would consider really comprehensive, especially in regard to the "vivid" group of Swedish venomous snake breeders and keepers. Not that the situation is any better around my place: the next institute sporting most of the antivenom I would require is 3 hours away, and the one having still valid antivenom for Australian elapids is at least another 3-4h down SW.
As for Copenhagen: your fear that this might only be a temporary affair might come true, given experiences with other institutes (BNITM, PEI etc.).

 

[temp]

We evidently have different defintions of what equals completeness, as I would say my comment is correct for having almost all in a well-connected region of only c. 20 million people and where incidents are extremely rare (serious incidents many years apart; I actually don't know any Scandinavian cases where a person has died from an "exotic" snake bite).

three main centers for four countries

Only a minor note: If you use the typical definition of Scandinavia there are three main centers in three countries (Sweden+Denmark+Norway = c.20 million people). If using the broad definition, more commonly called the Nordics (three previous+Finland+Iceland+Faroe = c.25 million people), there are four main centers in six countries as Finland also has one. That doesn't change much in terms of completeness as the three in "proper" Scandinavia already have almost everything. There are several smaller centers throughout, but they rarely stock anything for "exotics" because they easily and fast can get it from the main centers by road or air.
I do wonder if anybody keeps venomous snakes in tiny Iceland (c.300K people) or Faroe Islands (c.50K people), as both have laws banning their keeping and the remoteness would make smuggling quite complex. Getting antivenom out there would certainly be a time consuming.

(that was a change of subject; sea snakes)

 

[Batto]

We evidently have different defintions of what equals completeness

No; you and I seem to be on a different level of personal involvement in venomous reptile keeping and thus are of different awareness of actual practical implications.
Medically relevant snake bites are generally a rare thing in most of Europe - which is another reason for the aforementioned decrease in antivenom supply.
Are you aware of the different antivenoms currently on the market? If so, you might know that there isn't a thing such as "completeness".
As for whom to count as "Nordic", "Scandinavian" etc. : I counted those countries that have (or at least had) venomous snake keepers that I happen to know of (i.e. no one from Iceland, Greenland, Faroe Islands, Åland etc.).

 

[TheMightyOrca]

@TheMightyOrca
I suspect sourcing is a primary issue. Sea kraits, being semi-terrestrial, are easy enough to catch and have turned up with some frequency in aquariums around the world. In the right time you can catch them without ever getting your feet wet. Within the range of ordinary snake catchers and allowing for easy transport (easier to manage than a water-filled tank). The fully aquatic true sea snakes are an entirely different matter. Most ordinary fish-catchers would ignore them, both because of their venom and because there is little demand. Many countries have restrictions in place that prohibit private people from keeping them. This means that any public aquarium wishing to display a true sea snake likely would have to place a very expensive special order. This also means that locals have little experince with the species: little knowledge of safe capture, feeding it once captured and just making sure it is doing fine. If, for example, ordered through the Philippines, a major fish-exporting nation, there's a good chance you'd end up with a sickly individual that wouldn't last long. The exception is Australia where there are aquariums and experts with the knowledge, but Australia has strong restrictions on export of wildlife. However, under certain circumstances they do allow it (more on that below). Furthermore, although many ordinary people may find sea snakes interesting, few would make the distinction between sea krait and true sea snake. Indeed, one may argue that the sea kraits are better looking. So, the aquarium has to ask themselves: why go through the hassle of getting a true sea snake when you can get a sea krait?

Finally, many aquariums are hesitant when it comes to the extremely venomous sea snakes. Compared to e.g., stonefish, sea snakes are highly active, can escape aquariums if not properly secured and can move at least some distance on land. Zoos/public aquariums in several countries rely on centralized antivenom centers that keep stocks of antivenom. For example, antivenom for pretty much everything (mambas, rattlesnakes, etc) is widely stocked at centers throughout Europe. The exception is sea snake antivenom that isn't stocked anywhere (no use), meaning that the aquarium has to get it themselves. It is both very expensive and has a limited durability. The price for sea snake antivenom was actually one of the primary reasons for Blue Planet getting the olive sea snake, as they are working on developing a cheaper version. In southeast Asia there are fatalities every year that likely could have been prevented if a cheaper antivenom was available for the relatively poor local population. This and other research by one of the leading sea snake experts (don't ask why one of the world's leading sea snake experts is Danish... a country no-where near the range of sea snakes!), was a primary reason for Australia allowing the export of olive sea snakes to this European aquarium.

Yeah, I suspected that location/sourcing played a part.

It's really cool that an aquarium is working on developing antivenom!

 

[Hix]

One odd bit of dubious knowledge I once read, is that sea kraits will lay undersea. Is this true, Y/N? This was once widely repeated, and was the source of the idea about mosasaurs, in Spinar & Burian's most beloved text. I strongly suspect it isn't but there must be a basis: someone could write a paper or blog piece on the myth.

The two species in Niue - Laticauda laticaudata and L. schistorhynchus - lay their eggs in caves where the entrance is underwater but the interior, or at least part of it, is above water level. The eggs are then (generally) completely safe from predators.

This is a recently hatched laticaudata at the base of a stalagmite. It's the tail and a loop of body; I thought it was the head at the time, because viewing conditions - not to mention photography conditions - were less than ideal.

Hix

 

[SealPup]

The two species in Niue - Laticauda laticaudata and L. schistorhynchus - lay their eggs in caves where the entrance is underwater but the interior, or at least part of it, is above water level. The eggs are then (generally) completely safe from predators.

This is a recently hatched laticaudata at the base of a stalagmite. It's the tail and a loop of body; I thought it was the head at the time, because viewing conditions - not to mention photography conditions - were less than ideal.

Hix

Thx: either the two Zdeneks misunderstood this, or something was lost in translation to English. I guess it isn't impossible for marine animals to lay or pup in underwater caves where there are air pockets. And a word for a crevice could conceivably be confused with one for cave.