Have to say in my opinion Choppers certainly did know that lady ! We have visited Twycoss for many years and given Choppers background she never interacted with the public whenever we saw her , her late companion Louis certainly did ! But she would look on with mild interest only , I never saw her interact like she did with that lady.
Secrets of The Tea Chimps
- Thread starter Jane Doe
- Start date
I think you are showing your age, I'd say they'd already stopped using them many years ago
Animal Friendly
Well-Known Member
I thought that at first but I suppose it depends on the actual chimp concerned, When I go to Twycross I call at Benji , he comes over straight away and we have have a chat, perhaps he does that for other visitors who know him well. It was the same with Joe the gorilla, I used to sit on the floor and have a chat with him I think he was paying attention, other visitors I observed who went to speak to him nearly s*** themselves when he got up and thumped the glass ! I had similar reaction to the chimps at Whipsnade as what Chopper's former owner had and they did not know me, but as I said it depends on the actual chimp, Choppers may have not taken any notice of people in the past and was indeed pleased to see the lady and did recognise her, who knows what is going through the animal's mind, however is it not wishful thinking of anyone who likes these animals personally to think that these animals recognised them and were pleased to see them, however I was once told by someone who definitely knew what they were talking about at Twycross when discussing this matter that the apes I mention would definitely recognise me and be pleased to see me, who knows?
Could you put these up in the Gallery? Jod and Trudie? I wasn't aware that Jod (Bornean) and Trudie(Sumatran) were ever kept together. His original mate was'Alex' (Bornean) followed by 'Twiggy' from London. Jod did father hybrid babies with 'Trudie but that was from matings through the mesh in the Orangutan house when the two pairs were kept adjacently.
The actions you describe of Toby are very typical Sumatran behaviour- they seem to be able to exercise themselves by 'whirling' and 'cartwheeling' using any handholds available, even in small cages.
They are certainly together in the photo, I have a feeling that Toby, who was immature, may have been in the same cage too. This was well before the orang house was built. At that time the differences between Bornean and Sumatran orangs were not appreciated and quite a few hybrids were bred (like old Rajang, now at Colchester).
I seem to have had a photo burst in early October 1971. I have photos from Twycross, Birdland (Bourton-on-the-Water) and Bristol: unfortunately they are all pretty terrible as they were taken on 127 black and white film with my old Kodak Brownie 44B. It was after viewing them that I splurged about £40 from my student grant on my first 35mm camera, a Zenith B. Very few of them are worth a place in the Gallery, but I will add a couple to my list for scanning, when I finally sort out some new software for my old scanner.
Alan
From memory I never saw them like that when they were in the old cages, it was Jod/Alex and Toby/Trudie. However I could be wrong and photos normally tell the truth.
Toby was certainly younger/smaller than Trudie until he matured. Jod & Trudie later produced at least two hybrid young by 'mesh matings' in the Orangutan house, as Toby was evidently infertile, though that wasn't realised till some years later. These young went to La Palmyre in France.
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Hi I can assure you she did know who Mrs Locke was she hadn't seen her for many years but choppers did the most important thing she made eye contact, think about it if you are talking to someone you make eye contact. I always feel if someone can not look you in the eye when they are talking to you then they can not be trusted and I have never been wrong yet.
I must admit it spoilt it for me when Mrs Locke was kissed on both cheeks and welcomed as a very old friend by Miss MacDonald when she had probably only met her a couple of times if that and you could see Mrs Locke was not at easy with it either by her body language.
I must admit it spoilt it for me when Mrs Locke was kissed on both cheeks and welcomed as a very old friend by Miss MacDonald when she had probably only met her a couple of times if that and you could see Mrs Locke was not at easy with it either by her body language.
I didn't see the programme so can't comment directly, but a direct or fixed look does suggest she remembered her previous owner. Male chimps often show recognition by displaying excitedly but females are much quieter. I have also noticed that the longer the time that has elapsed e.g. many years, the lower key the animal's form of recognition or greeting may be- but it can still be there. But if the Ape fails to look at you, or simply looks 'through' you, then IMO its forgotten you.
Hi Pertinax,
I have know Choppers for many many years that is why I said she remembered who Mrs Locke because she looked at her made eye contact and even interacted with her she never turned her back on her it would be the same if I went and visited her after all these years.
I have know Choppers for many many years that is why I said she remembered who Mrs Locke because she looked at her made eye contact and even interacted with her she never turned her back on her it would be the same if I went and visited her after all these years.
Dear All,
This documentary started and ended with a most beautiful lady, my great aunt, Dorothy Phillips. It brought back many great memories of visiting her in the 1970's and 80's at her small bungalow next to the zoo. Many times there were baby chimps staying there and I know she had nothing but love for them as is evident in the interview clips throughout the film. Watching this brought tears to my eyes and just reminds me how important the 'magic moments' of our lives are.
Neil McLeod
This documentary started and ended with a most beautiful lady, my great aunt, Dorothy Phillips. It brought back many great memories of visiting her in the 1970's and 80's at her small bungalow next to the zoo. Many times there were baby chimps staying there and I know she had nothing but love for them as is evident in the interview clips throughout the film. Watching this brought tears to my eyes and just reminds me how important the 'magic moments' of our lives are.
Neil McLeod
Hi Neil
My sister learnt everything from Dorothy, she taught her everything she knew how to read chimps body language she was and is a wonderful lady and it just goes to prove you don't need to have qualifications to be a wonderful keeper in those days I don't think there was any that had qualifications just the love and compassion for the animals which you could see from the way Dorothy was speaking.
My sister learnt everything from Dorothy, she taught her everything she knew how to read chimps body language she was and is a wonderful lady and it just goes to prove you don't need to have qualifications to be a wonderful keeper in those days I don't think there was any that had qualifications just the love and compassion for the animals which you could see from the way Dorothy was speaking.
I enjoyed the programme and learned a lot. There were of course many messages in the programme, the main ones were:
1) Molly Badham and Nat Evans did a good job and their trained chimps were acceptable by the standards of the day
2) that now using trained chimps to behave like humans is unacceptable and
3) that there has been a long term effect from the hand-rearing and training, and the chimps now have behavioural and socialisation problems as a legacy of their rearing and training.
From what I could see the chimps were are reared in social groups of young and mentored by their human keepers. They were taught to do all sorts of human like behaviours such as riding bicycles and to do unnatural things like wear cloathes. Chimps are of course behaviourally flexible and capable of expressing many behaviours that you do not see in the wild, but this does not make it behaviourally damaging. Chimps did not evolve to wear cloathes or ride bicycles, but then neither did humans.
What is the long-term effects of this training, are the chimps maladjusted and unable to relate to their own kind? It seems that these chimps were orphaned or rescued animals that were socialised as well as could be done at the time, and if they do have behavioural problems these are not necessarily the product of the training. Hand-reared chimps can of course grow up to be very disturbed but this is usually because of the various kinds of social deprivation and many endure isolation from their own kind. This was not the case with the Twycross chimps that were socialised together and given an enriched lifestyle.
There are several on this forum who know the chimps well. The real question is what are the long-term problems that the chimps suffered as a result of the way they were reared, and how does this differ from other hand-reared chimps that were not trained for television adverts.
1) Molly Badham and Nat Evans did a good job and their trained chimps were acceptable by the standards of the day
2) that now using trained chimps to behave like humans is unacceptable and
3) that there has been a long term effect from the hand-rearing and training, and the chimps now have behavioural and socialisation problems as a legacy of their rearing and training.
From what I could see the chimps were are reared in social groups of young and mentored by their human keepers. They were taught to do all sorts of human like behaviours such as riding bicycles and to do unnatural things like wear cloathes. Chimps are of course behaviourally flexible and capable of expressing many behaviours that you do not see in the wild, but this does not make it behaviourally damaging. Chimps did not evolve to wear cloathes or ride bicycles, but then neither did humans.
What is the long-term effects of this training, are the chimps maladjusted and unable to relate to their own kind? It seems that these chimps were orphaned or rescued animals that were socialised as well as could be done at the time, and if they do have behavioural problems these are not necessarily the product of the training. Hand-reared chimps can of course grow up to be very disturbed but this is usually because of the various kinds of social deprivation and many endure isolation from their own kind. This was not the case with the Twycross chimps that were socialised together and given an enriched lifestyle.
There are several on this forum who know the chimps well. The real question is what are the long-term problems that the chimps suffered as a result of the way they were reared, and how does this differ from other hand-reared chimps that were not trained for television adverts.
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In recent years several of Twycross' most elderly chimps have died off. Some of these were ex T.V. chimps, others, like Eve who came from Bristol Zoo, definately weren't. They now have about 24- but how many of these are ex T.V. or otherwise humanised ones? I suspect its not very many.
So the debates on here and including the statements that the Zoo have been putting out about them recently are largely about a past situation and not the present.That's not a critisism of either btw as it was all no doubt stimulated by the Channel Five programme- its just an observation.
Yes you are correct it was in the past, a lot of the it was from the programme on channel 5 but not sure if you saw the piece that was on the news last year Chimps were 'damaged' by TV adverts | Central - ITV News
Yes I did, but once again its all(or nearly all) in the past now.
Of course things still aren't ideal with their Chimps- admittedly now in larger social groups but I still see this as a sort of halfway stage to having one proper colony- though I know it could still be a long wait for them to secure enough funding to build that. Given their long history with Chimps, its the most important thing I would like to see achieved there.
Of course things still aren't ideal with their Chimps- admittedly now in larger social groups but I still see this as a sort of halfway stage to having one proper colony- though I know it could still be a long wait for them to secure enough funding to build that. Given their long history with Chimps, its the most important thing I would like to see achieved there.