Bronx Zoo Should the Bronx Zoo keep elephants?

[Don Majeski]

Moderator note : topic split from this thread - Bronx Zoo News 2024 [Bronx Zoo]

I think what's very interesting is the animal rights activists seemed to come at this from the standpoint that an animal not being on public display was a sign that something was wrong -- but we know surely they would find it unethical for an animal to be forced on to public display, which would play into a lot of anti-zoo narratives itself. Like a lot of negative activists / extremists, they put the zoo into a position where either response would continue to play into their desired narrative - either the animal being off was a sign something was wrong, or the animal being forced out could be framed as abuse. So I just find it interesting that public visibility was the start of this issue.

It is ALWAYS best for zoos to be honest and transparent, even when it may be exploited, as it is good to prove they have nothing to hide, and imo this transparency also discourages any narrative they are profit-motivated, personally I think a lot of guests respond positively to finding out more about how zoos work behind the scenes. The Bronx Zoo's The Zoo is a great program for this reason.

The zoo needs to create an elephant breeding center to exhibit and propagate elephants - Asian and African
Elephants have been exhibited in New York City since the 18th century .
The Bronx, Central Park, Prospect Park and Coney Island once exhibited elephants
It was not the choice of species that was the problem it was the INFERIORITY OF THE EXHIBITION
40 years ago they BZ renovated the “Elephant House” for the express purpose of housing elephants - in addition to those in Wild Asia
But it too small and not ambitious enough
Smaller cities - ie Baltimore and
Pittsburgh exhibit exhibit elephants
Why doesn’t the Bronx build a facility to permanently house and breed them and the attendees and WCS membership
As well as NYS and NYC should support regardless of the cost
Elephants now - and forever more - in N.YX

 

[Matt G]

The zoo needs to create an elephant breeding center to exhibit and propagate elephants - Asian and African
Elephants have been exhibited in New York City since the 18th century .
The Bronx, Central Park, Prospect Park and Coney Island once exhibited elephants
It was not the choice of species that was the problem it was the INFERIORITY OF THE EXHIBITION
40 years ago they BZ renovated the “Elephant House” for the express purpose of housing elephants - in addition to those in Wild Asia
But it too small and not ambitious enough
Smaller cities - ie Baltimore and
Pittsburgh exhibit exhibit elephants
Why doesn’t the Bronx build a facility to permanently house and breed them and the attendees and WCS membership
As well as NYS and NYC should support regardless of the cost
Elephants now - and forever more - in N.YX

And I absolutely understand with this reason. All my life I adored elephants since childhood from the Bronx Zoo but honestly this really speaks for itself. Hopefully one day in the future I really hope I have my fingers crossed for the Bronx Zoo build a new permanent elephant complex where people including myself can still adore these magnificent mammals as much as it’s bittersweet today to think there’s now only two remaining in the Bronx.

 

[Don Majeski]

And I absolutely understand with this reason. All my life I adored elephants since childhood from the Bronx Zoo but honestly this really speaks for itself. Hopefully one day in the future I really hope I have my fingers crossed for the Bronx Zoo build a new permanent elephant complex where people including myself can still adore these magnificent mammals as much as it’s bittersweet today to think there’s now only two remaining in the Bronx.

If this were some zoo in a rural area of the U.S. there would have been no reaction from the over zealous “activists” but this, being New York City, there was world wide exposure according them the publicity they so dearly crave.
Much Ado…

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Yes it matters, Quite a lot actually. The Bronx zoo receives public money as part of its operation.
They are also in the crosshairs of the animal rights freaks. Both instances DEMAND that they
tell the truth (or at least not comment at all). The story that Happy simply did not want to go outside frankly has no credibility . I am a retired veterinarian and former zookeeper before that.
I don't see any benefit to not being 100% honest. And I see a major downside if they get caught not doing so.

Even while I agree the BZ and WCS should remain transparant and engage with the general public. This whole "story" is total BS non-issue, creates controversy and subterfuge where there is none, is abuse of public funds and law enforcement / judiciary time, constitutes slander and time and time has been demonstrated in court to be incorrect and beyond the pale manufacturing facts and creating fake news and panders to that small AW brigade that has issues with a non issue nor do they play any credible role in conservation in situ or ex situ.

It is a total waste of public space, time and money and TBH in more public places ... or environments I would simply go for the gutteral and use some very short expletives to cut this kind of crap short that is only pandering to the staunch anti zoo religiously converted mob nothing more or less. Engage publicly and put to grave right this instaande.


BTW If you ask me .... IMO the Bronx Zoo deserves, needs and absolutely should have its own state of the art and fit for future version of a new Asiatic elephant breeding program mirroring the ones that are presently seeing the light at Cincinnati, Columbus, Houston zoos and White Oak facility as a matter of urgency. The zoo has all green flags going for it and a world class elephant area (mirroring somewhat their Indian rhino program ...) for New York area. Period!

 

[Matt G]

Even while I agree the BZ and WCS should remain transparant and engage with the general public. This whole "story" is total BS non-issue, creates controversy and subterfuge where there is none, is abuse of public funds and law enforcement / judiciary time, constitutes slander and time and time has been demonstrated in court to be incorrect and beyond the pale manufacturing facts and creating fake news and panders to that small AW brigade that has issues with a non issue nor do they play any credible role in conservation in situ or ex situ.

It is a total waste of public space, time and money and TBH in more public places ... or environments I would simply go for the gutteral and use some very short expletives to cut this kind of crap short that is only pandering to the staunch anti zoo religiously converted mob nothing more or less. Engage publicly and put to grave right this instaande.


BTW If you ask me .... IMO the Bronx Zoo deserves, needs and absolutely should have its own state of the art and fit for future version of a new Asiatic elephant breeding program mirroring the ones that are presently seeing the light at Cincinnati, Columbus, Houston zoos and White Oak facility as a matter of urgency. The zoo has all green flags going for it and a world class elephant area (mirroring somewhat their Indian rhino program ...) for New York area. Period!

Indeed. There’s so much potential for the Bronx Zoo to provide the best care for the safety of the elephants

 

[Don Majeski]

Even while I agree the BZ and WCS should remain transparant and engage with the general public. This whole "story" is total BS non-issue, creates controversy and subterfuge where there is none, is abuse of public funds and law enforcement / judiciary time, constitutes slander and time and time has been demonstrated in court to be incorrect and beyond the pale manufacturing facts and creating fake news and panders to that small AW brigade that has issues with a non issue nor do they play any credible role in conservation in situ or ex situ.

It is a total waste of public space, time and money and TBH in more public places ... or environments I would simply go for the gutteral and use some very short expletives to cut this kind of crap short that is only pandering to the staunch anti zoo religiously converted mob nothing more or less. Engage publicly and put to grave right this instaande.


BTW If you ask me .... IMO the Bronx Zoo deserves, needs and absolutely should have its own state of the art and fit for future version of a new Asiatic elephant breeding program mirroring the ones that are presently seeing the light at Cincinnati, Columbus, Houston zoos and White Oak facility as a matter of urgency. The zoo has all green flags going for it and a world class elephant area (mirroring somewhat their Indian rhino program ...) for New York area. Period!

It was the most ill advised decision the WCS/New York Zoological Society made in its 125 year old history.
New York has exhibited elephants since the 18th century
The WCS should redirect funds from some field conservation projects to the zoological park to build an elephant facility tbe membership deserves.
I want my tax dollars to do this .
There are thousands upon thousands of conservation projects funded by natural history institutions in every nation on earth - privately and publicly .
There are only 5 zoos in New York
The Bronx Zoo and its public deserve elephants -and elephants deserve it

 

[Don Majeski]

It was the most ill advised decision the WCS/New York Zoological Society made in its 125 year old history.
New York has exhibited elephants since the 18th century
The WCS should redirect funds from some field conservation projects to the zoological park to build an elephant facility tbe membership deserves.
I want my tax dollars to do this .
There are thousands upon thousands of conservation projects funded by natural history institutions in every nation on earth - privately and publicly .
There are only 5 zoos in New York
The Bronx Zoo and its public deserve elephants -and elephants deserve it

Regarding the conservation of critically endangered species ex situ conservation can be as important as en situ.
It saved California condors, black footed ferrets, Arabian oryx and , if they, Sumatran rhinoceros.
As the WCS consistently puts forward in its publicity : “96 elephants per day are slaughtered by poachers “
Wouldn’t a half dozen of them be better of at the Bronx Zoo?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

It was the most ill advised decision the WCS/New York Zoological Society made in its 125 year old history.
New York has exhibited elephants since the 18th century
The WCS should redirect funds from some field conservation projects to the zoological park to build an elephant facility tbe membership deserves.
I want my tax dollars to do this .
There are thousands upon thousands of conservation projects funded by natural history institutions in every nation on earth - privately and publicly .
There are only 5 zoos in New York
The Bronx Zoo and its public deserve elephants -and elephants deserve it

I think the Bronx Zoo has a massive support base and the WCS in situ conservation projects that the Society and the Bronx Zoo promote can be continued irrespective of any zoo projected funding and investment in a new elephant habitat. Just look at the finances ... and potential fundors in the NY Greater Municipality area and surrounding counties.

 

[Don Majeski]

I think the Bronx Zoo has a massive support base and the WCS in situ conservation projects that the Society and the Bronx Zoo promote can be continued irrespective of any zoo projected funding and investment in a new elephant habitat. Just look at the finances ... and potential fundors in the NY Greater Municipality area and surrounding counties.

The WCS is constantly contracting and closing exhibits due to cost rather than building and expanding them:
1. World of Darkness: Closed, not replaced
2. RARE animal range: Closed , not replaced
3. South East quadrant of African plaza : Never developed -as conceptualized to house rhino, warthogs . Cheetah etc- but developed as a playground with no animal exhibits Never materialized
4. Blesbok: Decacquisitioned , not replaced
5. Monkey house: Not redeveloped nor renovated .
6. Elephants :To be discontinued
Aquarium:
Belugas and walrus - cornerstone species since 1950s- removed .
New habitat not developed
Prospect Park Zoo:
1. Major building exhibit - never developed
Queens Zoo:
1. Jaguar exhibit never realized

2. Playground replacing animal exhibit
The money is not allocated by the Society, state nor city and attendance and membership does not support the zoos.
They build a carousel rather than an orangutan or elephant exhibit - which they could charge extra admission.
There is no direct subway or bus stop at the Bronx Zoo - a borough where attendees fear to tread .
I am all for in situ conservation efforts but - with over 5,000 conservation organizations worldwide - the WCS needs to spend a larger portion on their
“living institutions”

 

[lintworm]

The WCS should redirect funds from some field conservation projects to the zoological park to build an elephant facility tbe membership deserves.

If you look at cost effectiveness of money spent and if you claim as a zoo that you take conservation serious, this is about the worst possible choice. It is not as if the zoo is a money making machine that pays for the conservation part...

Elephant exhibits don't come cheap. How is an organisation like WCS going to justify redirecting >50 million US dollars from conservation projects towards a facility for a single animal species that has all the potential to be a PR nightmare. You would have to gut a significant number of programs that actually make a difference. It is not as if a zoo needs elephants and the investment likely would not pay off long term either... Bronx Zoo might need investing in new enclosures, elephants would probably be one of the least cost-effective options, regardless of how many conservation projects you would want killed for it.

 

[15399]

The WCS should redirect funds from some field conservation projects to the zoological park to build an elephant facility tbe membership deserves.

There are thousands upon thousands of conservation projects funded by natural history institutions in every nation on earth - privately and publicly .

I'd encourage you to travel to Belize, where the WCS sponsors a lot of field conservation, visit some conservation areas down there, and upon return ask yourself again if WCS shifting funds away from conservation and towards the zoos would still be justified. When I visited Belize earlier this year, the impact of WCS, the second largest conservation organization in the world, was evident EVERYWHERE we went. They are quite literally the single most important conservation organization in the entire country, and losing even a fraction of the WCS support there could spell doom to entire ecosystems (no, I am not exaggerating). There may be many more conservation groups worldwide, but many of these groups don't spend their funds as wisely and as thoughtfully as WCS, which typically targets countries and regions where other conservation groups aren't focusing on.

I get wanting the zoos to improve, and it is undeniable that there hasn't been a lot of new exhibits at the Bronx Zoo in recent years (although most of what is there remains incredible and world-class). However defunding vital conservation initiatives is not the way to improve the zoos, as the global impacts of this would be devastating.

 

[AnActualFan]

The other problem with an Elephant exhibit is land use. They need a lot of land that Bronx doesn't have unless you want to make Wild Asia Monorail less diverse, which would be a shame. If you want to move them out of Wild Asia Monorail, you would need to remove a giant area somewhere, which would take years of work for just one species; it's just not worth it, in my own opinion

 

[Don Majeski]

If you look at cost effectiveness of money spent and if you claim as a zoo that you take conservation serious, this is about the worst possible choice. It is not as if the zoo is a money making machine that pays for the conservation part...

Elephant exhibits don't come cheap. How is an organisation like WCS going to justify redirecting >50 million US dollars from conservation projects towards a facility for a single animal species that has all the potential to be a PR nightmare. You would have to gut a significant number of programs that actually make a difference. It is not as if a zoo needs elephants and the investment likely would not pay off long term either... Bronx Zoo might need investing in new enclosures, elephants would probably be one of the least cost-effective options, regardless of how many conservation projects you would want killed for it.

I would guarantee that every zoo that exhibits elephants has a larger attendance than does that don’t.
People would definitely pay a seperate fee to see Loxodonta and Elephas
No doubt .
Has anyone ever audited the in situ conservation spending ?
Who and what gets that money?
Attendees pay separately to view gorillas, the Wild Asia monorail species and the Children’s zoo - not to mention the playgrounds , rides-and special “keepers classes”
I would not question a increase in my annual membership fee (Now $200+)
to permanently view elephants
We must increase attendance to increase revenue
San Diego A zoo with less average , made the decision in the 1960s to be a “show destination” in that , the institution made itself an autonomous tourist attraction a must see - like the Louvre is to Paris - destination for anyone going to San Diego . New York did
It is because New York has no civic pride - which is why we lost our baseball teams and football teams to other states
We have ethnocentric and racial pride drummed into us but no pride of being New Yorker’s only and only wanting the biggest and best of everything as the largest - quantatatively - if not qualitatively - city in the USA
The city should $50,000,000 of its
$1,300,000,000(!) budget on a one time expenses
As a home owner, property tax payer ,
city resident who pays state and city income tax I am all for tax dollars going to that

 

[Nile Hippo Expert]

I would guarantee that every zoo that exhibits elephants has a larger attendance than does that don’t.

How about you compare the attendance of the Commerford Zoo (which does have elephants) with the Lincoln Park Zoo (which doesn't have elephants) in 2023 and see the difference between them?

 

[StoppableSan]

The other problem with an Elephant exhibit is land use. They need a lot of land that Bronx doesn't have unless you want to make Wild Asia Monorail less diverse, which would be a shame. If you want to move them out of Wild Asia Monorail, you would need to remove a giant area somewhere, which would take years of work for just one species; it's just not worth it, in my own opinion

I think I figured out a method in which the zoo could metaphorically eat its cake and have it too when it comes to elephants, though this probably belongs in the speculative thread. Short of it is, it's less phasing out and more reshuffling. Not only would this be an economical plan where the WCS could absolutely find the money to do so, there are significant welfare enhancements for not just the elephants but all the animals in Wild Asia.

 

[tigris115]

I think we figured out a method in which the zoo could metaphorically eat its cake and have it too when it comes to elephants, though this probably belongs in the speculative thread. Short of it is, it's less phasing out and more reshuffling. Not only would this be an economical plan where the WCS could absolutely find the money to do so, there are significant welfare enhancements for not just the elephants but all the animals in Wild Asia.

Fixed it ;3

 

[AnActualFan]

I think I figured out a method in which the zoo could metaphorically eat its cake and have it too when it comes to elephants, though this probably belongs in the speculative thread. Short of it is, it's less phasing out and more reshuffling. Not only would this be an economical plan where the WCS could absolutely find the money to do so, there are significant welfare enhancements for not just the elephants but all the animals in Wild Asia.

May I see it?

 

[Don Majeski]

How about you compare the attendance of the Commerford Zoo (which does have elephants) with the Lincoln Park Zoo (which doesn't have elephants) in 2023 and see the difference between them?

I lived to do that :
Commeford Zoo
Lincoln Park Zoo:
Locations:
Commeford Zoo: Goshen, Connecticut
Lincoln Park Zoo: Chicago, Illinois

Population comparison :
Goshen,Connecticut (Commeford )
: 3,150
Lincoln Park (Chicago): 2,665,000

Admission:
Conmeford Zoo: $22
Lincoln Park: Free

Transportation:
Commeford: Automobile or hiking
Lincoln Park : el train, subway, 9 bus lines - or ten minute walk from twenty hotels and boat via Lake Michigan

I am a a multi- generational resident of New York City - homeowner .
I have never been to Commeford zoo - despite its (Non breeding ) elephants.
When I wish to see elephants now I hop on Amtrack to see Africans in Baltimore or Asians at National - BECAUSE IT’S MORE ACCESSIBLE to travel 200 miles to DC than get to Goshen , Connecticut to see a , what amounts to , a circus act
Central Park Zoo likely outdraws the Bronx and has no elephants BECAUSE it is in mid town Manhattan NOT the wilds of the Bronx - with its attendant - non zoo -“wildlife “
Can you imagine what the attendance of the “ New York Zoological
park@ would be if it were on 265 acres of Central Park rather than Bronx Park?
If the locations were ditched the Bronx would draw 5,000,000 per year and the diminutive CPZ - relocated to 6 acres of Bronx Park - under 50,000- unless. of course, they had elephants.
The NY aquarium -when it was located in downtown Manhattan - in the shadow of the Statue of Liberty -was largest tourist attraction in New York - drawing 3,000,000 per year. It draws a fraction of that today in its obscure - particularly post Labor Day - location imposed upon it by urban phobic Robert Moses as a perverse form of compensation in 1957 for Brooklyn’s losing the Dodgers the following year
Zoos are like any other form of Real Estate: location , location , location.
The analogy you make between an obscure , glorified petting zoo - whether they are riding elephants or snuggling rabbits - and a 100 year old institution that charges no admission in the second largest city in the USA is absurd
Of course, I give you the benefit of the doubt the that you were just being facetious and sarcastic to prove a point .
And I agree with that point : Obscure institutions in rural towns will draw less attendance than those that have been around a 100 years in a city of 2,665,000
-whether they have elephants or not.
Case in point : the Anchorage zoo recently held an elephant and their attendance was less than than of Central Park Zoo!
Mush.

 

[Chlidonias]

I lived to do that :
Commeford Zoo
Lincoln Park Zoo:
Locations:
Commeford Zoo: Goshen, Connecticut
Lincoln Park Zoo: Chicago, Illinois

Population comparison :
Goshen,Connecticut (Commeford )
: 3,150
Lincoln Park (Chicago): 2,665,000

Admission:
Conmeford Zoo: $22
Lincoln Park: Free

Transportation:
Commeford: Automobile or hiking
Lincoln Park : el train, subway, 9 bus lines - or ten minute walk from twenty hotels and boat via Lake Michigan

I am a a multi- generational resident of New York City - homeowner .
I have never been to Commeford zoo - despite its (Non breeding ) elephants.
When I wish to see elephants now I hop on Amtrack to see Africans in Baltimore or Asians at National - BECAUSE IT’S MORE ACCESSIBLE to travel 200 miles to DC than get to Goshen , Connecticut to see a , what amounts to , a circus act
Central Park Zoo likely outdraws the Bronx and has no elephants BECAUSE it is in mid town Manhattan NOT the wilds of the Bronx - with its attendant - non zoo -“wildlife “
Can you imagine what the attendance of the “ New York Zoological
park@ would be if it were on 265 acres of Central Park rather than Bronx Park?
If the locations were ditched the Bronx would draw 5,000,000 per year and the diminutive CPZ - relocated to 6 acres of Bronx Park - under 50,000- unless. of course, they had elephants.
The NY aquarium -when it was located in downtown Manhattan - in the shadow of the Statue of Liberty -was largest tourist attraction in New York - drawing 3,000,000 per year. It draws a fraction of that today in its obscure - particularly post Labor Day - location imposed upon it by urban phobic Robert Moses as a perverse form of compensation in 1957 for Brooklyn’s losing the Dodgers the following year
Zoos are like any other form of Real Estate: location , location , location.
The analogy you make between an obscure , glorified petting zoo - whether they are riding elephants or snuggling rabbits - and a 100 year old institution that charges no admission in the second largest city in the USA is absurd
Of course, I give you the benefit of the doubt the that you were just being facetious and sarcastic to prove a point .
And I agree with that point : Obscure institutions in rural towns will draw less attendance than those that have been around a 100 years in a city of 2,665,000
-whether they have elephants or not.
Case in point : the Anchorage zoo recently held an elephant and their attendance was less than than of Central Park Zoo!
Mush.

So ... what was your point when you said "I would guarantee that every zoo that exhibits elephants has a larger attendance than does that don’t."?

 

[Don Majeski]

So ... what was your point when you said "I would guarantee that every zoo that exhibits elephants has a larger attendance than does that don’t."?

Of course any obscure location - a road side in the middle of Saskatchewan might draw less people than Queens zoo An elephantless 200,000 per annum in attendance ) because is in a population of 104 as compared to 2,000,000 they are going to have smaller attendance
The point being major zoos that exhibit elephants (plural) will have greater attendance and create greater interest than those that do not - all things being equal .
I have never any zoo attendee proclaim
“Let’s not see the elephants better to see the zebra mice they are less controversial “