Bronx Zoo Should the Bronx Zoo keep elephants?

Don Majeski said:
Of course any obscure location - a road side in the middle of Saskatchewan might draw less people than Queens zoo An elephantless 200,000 per annum in attendance ) because is in a population of 104 as compared to 2,000,000 they are going to have smaller attendance
The point being major zoos that exhibit elephants (plural) will have greater attendance and create greater interest than those that do not - all things being equal .
I have never any zoo attendee proclaim
“Let’s not see the elephants better to see the zebra mice they are less controversial “
Click to expand...
This sounds pretty bogus. Your claim cannot possibly be tested unless you had two zoos in the same city which are identical apart for the presence of elephants. There are too many variables if you're comparing different cities, even if the only difference between the two zoos is the elephants.
 
Chlidonias said:
This sounds pretty bogus. Your claim cannot possibly be tested unless you had two zoos in the same city which are identical apart for the presence of elephants. There are too many variables if you're comparing different cities, even if the only difference between the two zoos is the elephants.
Click to expand...
One can compare zoos in cities with comparable populations -NOT necessarily Goshen, Connecticut and Chicago, Illinois - and use those as the basis
Syracuse to Utica, Providence to Bridgeport , San Francisco to San Diego etc..
No one can convince me that elephants are not a major attraction for zoos .
 
Don Majeski said:
One can compare zoos in cities with comparable populations -NOT necessarily Goshen, Connecticut and Chicago, Illinois - and use those as the basis
Syracuse to Utica, Providence to Bridgeport , San Francisco to San Diego etc..
No one can convince me that elephants are not a major attraction for zoos .
Click to expand...
No one has said elephants aren't a major attraction at a zoo. Lots of animals are a major attraction at a zoo. But your claim was "I would guarantee that every zoo that exhibits elephants has a larger attendance than does that don’t" - Are you seriously suggesting, to take one of your examples above, that the San Francisco Zoo would have more visitors than the San Diego Zoo if the former had elephants and the latter didn't?
 
Chlidonias said:
No one has said elephants aren't a major attraction at a zoo. Lots of animals are a major attraction at a zoo. But your claim was "I would guarantee that every zoo that exhibits elephants has a larger attendance than does that don’t" - Are you seriously suggesting, to take one of your examples above, that the San Francisco Zoo would have more visitors than the San Diego Zoo if the former had elephants and the latter didn't?
Click to expand...
No . I am not suggesting . I AM suggesting that they would have more visitors than THEY have now IF they had elephants
I guarantee attendance would increase should they, once again, exhibit elephants
 
Don Majeski said:
I would guarantee that every zoo that exhibits elephants has a larger attendance than does that don’t.
People would definitely pay a seperate fee to see Loxodonta and Elephas
No doubt .
Click to expand...

It would be nice if you could back up such a statement with actual evidence. You guarantee doesn't mean much to me. Especially as both Tiergarten Nuernberg and Tierpark Berlin show higher attendance after they (temporarily) stopped keeping elephants compared to before. That doesn't mean that elephants drag down visitor numbers, but at least it points towards the fact they are no guarantee for higher visitor numbers.

It is fairly simple, a zoo needs to have a positive image (generally speaking) and needs to develop new stuff on a regular basis (what is regular really depends on the zoo). Elephants can be part of that development, but don't need to, there needs to be a business case to justify the expense.

Don Majeski said:
The city should $50,000,000 of its
$1,300,000,000(!) budget on a one time expenses
Click to expand...

The 50 million is a lower boundary and would likely be closer to 100 million USD in NYC. But you already show that the zoo itself would not be able to pay for such an investment and is dependent on outside funding. It also means substantial additional running costs as you need a whole team of full time keepers for an elephant herd and energy, food & maintenance costs are also high. Elephants are expensive, so while they have star status, they don't necessarily pay for themselves. Increased visitor numbers don't mean much if they don't cover the extra expense.

So A) it is a huge investment and B) you will need increased attendance for decades to cope with additional annual costs. You might be willing to pay the price, but a zoo like the Bronx could probably think of a better way to spend 100 million USD if the option existed...
 
I don't really feel like getting into another argument--that's already thoroughly covered at this point--about all the reasons why an elephant mega-complex doesn't make any sense for the Bronx and what damage it would do to much more vulnerable zoo programs (the sacrificing of invaluable conservation programs for a zoo exhibit is a new one, though!). I will take a moment to, once again, point out one thing:

Don Majeski said:
Attendees pay separately to view gorillas, the Wild Asia monorail species and the Children’s zoo
Click to expand...

No, they don't. They used to, but the zoo's admission hasn't worked like that in many years now. There is a cheaper ticket you can opt into that does exclude these exhibits, and presumably on the free Wednesdays only I would expect that they still collect admission to these exhibits, but for every 'normal' day of the year, the zoo's default admission includes all of these exhibits. I would wager that at least 80-90% of the people visiting the zoo on any given day other than Wednesdays buys the default ticket and has total access to all exhibits without a pay wall as they would any other zoo.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
I don't really feel like getting into another argument--that's already thoroughly covered at this point--about all the reasons why an elephant mega-complex doesn't make any sense for the Bronx and what damage it would do to much more vulnerable zoo programs (the sacrificing of invaluable conservation programs for a zoo exhibit is a new one, though!). I will take a moment to, once again, point out one thing:



No, they don't. They used to, but the zoo's admission hasn't worked like that in many years now. There is a cheaper ticket you can opt into that does exclude these exhibits, and presumably on the free Wednesdays only I would expect that they still collect admission to these exhibits, but for every 'normal' day of the year, the zoo's default admission includes all of these exhibits. I would wager that at least 80-90% of the people visiting the zoo on any given day other than Wednesdays buys the default ticket and has total access to all exhibits without a pay wall as they would any other zoo.

~Thylo
Click to expand...

The point is , simply , should the Vrobx Zoo continue to exhibit - and attempt to breed - elephants .
I believe they should
I believe that many of their in situ conservation efforts are also covered by other international, national , regional and private institutions and organizations
Somehow, SOMEHOW New York zoos were able New York City zoos managed to exhibit elephants for over 100 years
There is no reason can not continue to do so.
It is a matter of will and money.
Will attendees and members pay more to support elephants
I believe they will.
As to cost ..Baltimore can afford to exhibit elephants .
Great Adventure can exhibit Loxodonta in a seasonal basis in their middling “safari park “- even Providence has Loxodonta
The CPZ and PPZ exhibited elephants -and they charged no admission
Their exhibits were deplorable but the choice of tbe exhibited
They just need better artificial habitats
As a proud multi generational resident of New York City, I want MY city to exhibit elephants.
I have never seen these controversy over Pere David deer
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Neil chace said:
I'd encourage you to travel to Belize, where the WCS sponsors a lot of field conservation, visit some conservation areas down there, and upon return ask yourself again if WCS shifting funds away from conservation and towards the zoos would still be justified. When I visited Belize earlier this year, the impact of WCS, the second largest conservation organization in the world, was evident EVERYWHERE we went. They are quite literally the single most important conservation organization in the entire country, and losing even a fraction of the WCS support there could spell doom to entire ecosystems (no, I am not exaggerating). There may be many more conservation groups worldwide, but many of these groups don't spend their funds as wisely and as thoughtfully as WCS, which typically targets countries and regions where other conservation groups aren't focusing on.

I get wanting the zoos to improve, and it is undeniable that there hasn't been a lot of new exhibits at the Bronx Zoo in recent years (although most of what is there remains incredible and world-class). However defunding vital conservation initiatives is not the way to improve the zoos, as the global impacts of this would be devastating.
Click to expand...
I did not imply that WCS discontinue their conservation efforts where they are the single or primary source of maintaining the eco systems only where efforts are redundant
 
Don Majeski said:
I believe they should
Click to expand...

The reality of elephant husbandry requirements, WCS’s limited budget, and activists not ever giving up does not care what you believe.

Don Majeski said:
As a proud multi generational resident of New York City, I want MY city to exhibit elephants.
Click to expand...

If I were in your shoes I would be thankful that I grew up in a city with a world class zoo, with or without elephants, in the first place. Instead of bemoaning over something inevitable I would appreciate what the zoo still has the Congo Gorilla Forest, JungleWorld, Madagascar!, and etc. But seeing your previous ideas such as wanting polar bears for Prospect Park or walruses and belugas for the New York Aquarium I may as well assume that is a tall task.

To close it off, it’s quite ironic that you still replied ~Thylo after claiming to wanting to move on. There, that’s my two cents.
 
PossumRoach said:
The reality of elephant husbandry requirements, WCS’s limited budget, and activists not ever giving up does not care what you believe.



If I were in your shoes I would be thankful that I grew up in a city with a world class zoo, with or without elephants, in the first place. Instead of bemoaning over something inevitable I would appreciate what the zoo still has the Congo Gorilla Forest, JungleWorld, Madagascar!, and etc. But seeing your previous ideas such as wanting polar bears for Prospect Park or walruses and belugas for the New York Aquarium I may as well assume that is a tall task.

To close it off, it’s quite ironic that you still replied ~Thylo after claiming to wanting to move on. There, that’s my two cents.
Click to expand...
Interesting how they used to exhibit all these species to begin with. If they hadn’t it never would have peaked interest .
I can like it or lump it - or move to San Diego or Berlin.
Anyways- you pays your money and you rejected choice
I am certain you will get your wish
Topic closed for me
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Don Majeski said:
The point is , simply , should the Vrobx Zoo continue to exhibit - and attempt to breed - elephants .
I believe they should
I believe that many of their in situ conservation efforts are also covered by other international, national , regional and private institutions and organizations
Somehow, SOMEHOW New York zoos were able New York City zoos managed to exhibit elephants for over 100 years
There is no reason can not continue to do so.
It is a matter of will and money.
Will attendees and members pay more to support elephants
I believe they will.
As to cost ..Baltimore can afford to exhibit elephants .
Great Adventure can exhibit Loxodonta in a seasonal basis in their middling “safari park “- even Providence has Loxodonta
The CPZ and PPZ exhibited elephants -and they charged no admission
Their exhibits were deplorable but the choice of tbe exhibited
They just need better artificial habitats
As a proud multi generational resident of New York City, I want MY city to exhibit elephants.
I have never seen these controversy over Pere David deer
Click to expand...

You're taking examples of zoos keeping elephants in abysmal conditions in the mid-20th century and using that as evidence for Bronx keeping elephants today. You're taking examples of zoos that do not have totally appropriate exhibits for their elephants and have active plans to no longer keep them in the future and using that as evidence for Bronx keeping elephants today. All the while demanding they build something larger than the size of most of your example zoos for their elephants, and pretending it's the same thing.

You're claiming X + Rectangle = 4... To that I say *shrug*

Bronx will do what they need to do with their elephant program, whether it be phase them out or continue holding non-breeders in their existing exhibit. I trust the zoo and the decision-makers there. The Bronx is one of the few zoos in the country that still clearly value biodiversity in zoos and are fighting back against the trend of phase-outs and giving up on obscure species. In that, they're doubling down on AZA phase-outs such as Gaur, half their Asian deer species, and Dhole. The zoo's collection is growing in size year to year, particularly in the bird and herp departments. Not to mention the clear conservation-focus evident in both their in-situ and ex-situ programs. They're doing just fine and, personally, I love their Pere David's herd!

~Thylo
 
Honestly, if this zoo changes its mind and continue keeping elephants I feel it is more realistic to renovate the current habitat to keep a small group of bachelor bulls. We will need those spaces. As far I know they have three stalls in the barn for elephants. That’s enough for a landlocked zoo in the major city.
 
I'm not everywhere agree with the arguments of @Don Majeski, but I think - in all fairness - that we can discuss about the core of his initial statement (or rather: the headline of this thread).

So I allow myself to be agree, that Bronx Zoo could AND should keep elephants (also in future).
Not only because there is enough space for a worldclass elephant exhibit. But also to use them as an ambassador for another wildlife conservation project (as Zoo Zurich does with their elephants and Kaeng Krachan in Thailand as an example). Yes, Bronx Zoo (WCS) is already involved in many conservation projects. But can there be enough? And yes, it is correct that building (and running) such an exhibit would be expensive. But it could be a win-win-win-situation.
First, there are special efforts needed from the marketing departement. And here I go with the thoughts of @Don Majeski. It must be possible for the marketing employees of Bronx Zoo to find enough sponsors in a city like New York for (building and running) a new elephant exhibit.
Second, for an experienced organisation like Bronx/WCS it should be easy to find a suitable partner organisation for (in-situ) conservation.
And third: Selling all this way would not only draw more visitors to Bronx Zoo, but also enhance the image of the institution AND the company(ies) that spent to money for such a project. And last but not least there could be another (needed!) breeding holder to built a long term sustainable elephant population in captivity (at least in the AZA region).
 
I agree.

If Bronx zoo has enough space to rebuild their facility into a modern elephant exhibit - it should continue to keep elephants in future.

The Asian elephant SSP is on the right way and is getting closer to self-sustainable captive population. The moment it will reach such status, it will run into severe space limitations, especially for young bulls or adult bulls not needed for reproduction (anymore) - just like we see in Europe now. A nice place for bachelor herd will be golden.
 
ZCChip said:
Honestly, if this zoo changes its mind and continue keeping elephants I feel it is more realistic to renovate the current habitat to keep a small group of bachelor bulls. We will need those spaces. As far I know they have three stalls in the barn for elephants. That’s enough for a landlocked zoo in the major city.
Click to expand...
Jana said:
I agree.

If Bronx zoo has enough space to rebuild their facility into a modern elephant exhibit - it should continue to keep elephants in future.

The Asian elephant SSP is on the right way and is getting closer to self-sustainable captive population. The moment it will reach such status, it will run into severe space limitations, especially for young bulls or adult bulls not needed for reproduction (anymore) - just like we see in Europe now. A nice place for bachelor herd will be golden.
Click to expand...

And to this point I agree 100%. I'd like it if the zoo continued on with elephants, but they'd be much more useful putting their resourcing into current habitat upgrades and keeping bachelor or retired elephants and allow facilities with larger budgets, more sponsors, and existing facilities to breed the species. Given how low the survival rate is for captive-bred Asian Elephants right now, investing in a mega-exhibit for breeding them is, in some ways, a massive waste of resources.

One point everyone seems to be conveniently ignoring is how many of the zoo's other species would be lost just for elephants. Yes, the Bronx has a massive campus. It also has a pretty well developed campus given the terrain they have to work with. Building a new elephant complex would spell disaster to the rest of the zoo's existing hoofstock programs. These include species that are in much more desperate need of publicity and conservation highlighting than Asian (or African) Elephants. The Wild Asia exhibit is currently home to the following endangered species:
  • Bactrian Deer (one of three holders in the country, and to my knowledge one of only two actively breeding)
  • Barasingha (one of three/four(?) AZA holders and home to the largest herd)
  • Mongolian Wild Horse
  • Gaur (one of two AZA holders, actively breeding, and home to a herd nearly 40-strong!)
  • Brow-Antlered Deer (one of three holders)
  • Indian Rhinoceros
  • North Sulawesi Babirusa
  • Malayan Tiger (the EAZA program failed and the AZA population desperately needs more breeding/holding space)
  • Indian Sambar (the ONLY remaining holder in the US and breeding)
  • Indian Hog Deer (the ONLY remaining holder in AZA and breeding)
  • Western Tufted Deer
  • Turkmenian Markhor
The exhibit is also home to numerous not-so-endangered species that are also exceedingly rare in AZA zoos, including Blackbuck, Chital, Nilgai, and North Indian Muntjac. How many of these species would need to go in favor of an elephant breeding complex that may likely not ever produce surviving offspring? When you bear in mind that, for most of these species, Bronx phasing them out means total population collapse in the US/AZA, and to me I just don't see why anyone would want this. Not to mention what the cost of elephants would do for the operating budget of the zoo's other departments. The small mammal, bird, and herptile departments would surely suffer simply due to the reallocation of budgets alone.

If the zoo was able to pull in a big city corp. sponsor willing to pour millions into a project for them, doesn't it stand to reason that they would have already done this for any one of their other big projects they've actually been talking about (Monkey House reopening, World of Darkness reopening, the Latin America exhibit, the African Plains mini-expansion in place of the Nature Trek)?

While I do want the zoo to continue on with elephants, any one of the above developments would add more species to the zoo and provide much needed assistance to many more struggling zoo populations than an elephant mega-exhibit ever would. I just don't think it makes sense for the Bronx Zoo. I can't see it doing anything but more harm than good for the zoo.

~Thylo
 
@ThylacineAlive: I agree with you about Not phasing out the (hoofed)animals you mentioned for a new elephant exhibit. However, I think, this won't be necessary either.
I just checked bronx zoo map and google map. According to them, there is a huge unused space between Tiger Mountain, Jungle World Road, Himalayan Mountain and the road from the Northern Ponds to the Dholes. Unless this is a protected area in any way, it would have space enough for a new elephant exhibit. The second opiton would be to use the area, that former held the przewalski horses (and Pere Davids deers?) between Birds of Prey/Aquatic Bird House, Wildlife Health Center, Southern Boulevard and Fordham Road (maybe plus Cope Lake and Global Conservation Center).
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top