Smallest enclosures in UK

[Shorts]

Following on from a brief "discussion" in an Edinburgh thread, I was wondering what the smallest enclosures in the country are for various species and whether people considered them adequate.

For starters, I can't remember any Callithrichid enclosures much smaller than Twycross' (possibly Shaldon? not been for a while) but I consider them entirely adequate and they're one of my favourite parts of the zoo. There, a positive Twycross comment.

 

[Parrotsandrew]

Something tells me I had better steer clear of this thread. I did think the Penguin pool at Combe Martin in 2000 was more like a bath, but I believe there has been a new Penguin exhibit constructed since then. I did not enjoy my visit to Combe Martin (I left after 70 minutes and walked to Exmoor), so I have not been back since.

 

[TARZAN]

Something tells me I had better steer clear of this thread. I did think the Penguin pool at Combe Martin in 2000 was more like a bath, but I believe there has been a new Penguin exhibit constructed since then. I did not enjoy my visit to Combe Martin (I left after 70 minutes and walked to Exmoor), so I have not been back since.

Why stay clear Andrew?, we are all here to give our opinion and I for one like to hear you onP.S. have you found the photo of Gerry's elephants on the beach at Bridlington, I am looking forward to seeing them. Right back to business, Twycross lion enclosure, yes it is small, I would have described it as just adequate for housing a pair of lions, I would think when it was built to house African lions it was the intention to just display a pair of lions, cubs did not enter the equation, a different matter of coarse when they were replaced with the Asian lions, I did not think this enclosure was adequate then, but at least cubs were born and successfully reared in it. I don't know exactly when this lion enclosure was initially built, but I would think at that time it was a manor from heaven to some lion accommodation I remember at some of the zoos I visited at this time, eg, Seaburn, Knaresborough, and I don't think at this time the facilities at the much respected Bristol were much better. Of course, this enclosure, for lions at least, is now history, and after all the chimps at Twycross have been successfully been rehoused elsewhere in the zoo we can look forward to the construction of the new carnivore enclosures, and a return of Asian Lions at Twycross, look forward to the future with a positive attitude

 

[Parrotsandrew]

Not yet I'm afraid, they are one of three lots of photos I am hoping to find. Actually, talking of small exhibits my one of Cuddles at Dudley is amongst them although his pool was not quite as small as is sometimes believed - mind you it was a bit narrow at one end. Historically I could come up with quite a few small enclosures, but I tend to stick to visiting the same places these days and nothing really jumps out as inadequate.

 

[Brum]

How about the pinniped pool at WMSP, the one that is the penguin pool. Well I think it's the penguin pool, not been since last summer.
That was a small enclosure for 2 fur seals and it housed 4 or possibly 5 Californian sea lions when I was younger. It's basically a box and was always inadequate in my eyes.

 

[Pertinax]

I don't think at this time the facilities at the much respected Bristol were much better.

we can look forward to the construction of the new carnivore enclosures, and a return of Asian Lions at Twycross, look forward to the future with a positive attitude

When Bristol remodelled the top 'terrace' end of the Zoo in the mid 1970's the new Big Cat accomodation was ridiculously small, consisting of five small hexagonal-style cages with offshow dens behind. The Lions and Tigers, being the biggest cats, were the most cramped for space. Gradually they lost species and combined/extended the area outward, until they ended up with just the Asian Lions in their current much more spacious exhibit.

Any news on the latest timeframe for the planned Lion/Dhole enclosures at Twycross? This seems to have been 'frozen' for some while now.

 

[IanRRobinson]

When Bristol remodelled the top 'terrace' end of the Zoo in the mid 1970's the new Big Cat accomodation was ridiculously small, consisting of five small hexagonal-style cages with offshow dens behind. The Lions and Tigers, being the biggest cats, were the most cramped for space. Gradually they lost species and combined/extended the area outward, until they ended up with just the Asian Lions in their current much more spacious exhibit.

Any news on the latest timeframe for the planned Lion/Dhole enclosures at Twycross? This seems to have been 'frozen' for some while now.

Personally I think that facility is wasted on lions. It's still not very big, and the height is wasted on them. Snow leopards or Amur leopards would make much better use of that enclosure, IMO.

Someone posted a clip of Thorney Wildlife Park recently, dating from 1975(?). It showed a pair of Polar Bears in an enclosure that might, just, have been capable of being used as a rather indifferent wading birds' aviary.

 

[TeaLovingDave]

The Brown Bear enclosure at Highland Wildlife Park back in the late 1980s or early 90s was even worse, as far as my dim infant recollection goes - effectively a deep, dry wellshaft with a bear at the bottom.

 

[TriGB]

Most enclosures at Drayton Manor (with the exception of the Tiger/Lions). The old Chimp, Bear, Arctic Fox and Macaque cages were particularly bad!

Twycross's old Elephant enclosure for Iris and Gitara - that was shocking even back then!

Paignton's Gibbon 'project' aviary and house at the end of Orang Lake.

Edinburghs current big cat row (except lions) is bad for big cats but ok for wolverine etc....
Edinburghs current monkey house is disgraceful and I'm surprised it gets so little criticism! Living Links and Budongo are so good it is frustrating!

Bristols old Ele paddock and current Lion cage are small.

Paigntons hill-side cheetah paddock is too small in my opinion too!

Londons Giraffe and Ring tailed lemur housing is small.

Colchesters wolf enclosure is also too small (for the species).

 

[IanRRobinson]

Most criticism of UK zoos pales into insignificance compared to this:-http://www.zoochat.com/1107/pata-zoo-bangkok-86910/

 

[Mr T]

I thought this thread was meant to be discussing current exhibits that we consider to be too small. There are a lot of people on here mentioning 'the old (name of animal) enclosure at (name of animal collection)'. If we were looking at enclosures from the past that were too small surely we would be here all day.

 

[Pertinax]

Personally I think that facility is wasted on lions. It's still not very big, and the height is wasted on them. Snow leopards or Amur leopards would make much better use of that enclosure, IMO.

The shape/height when it was extended was dictated by the original design, so it wasn't actually designed specifically for the Lions. I agree Amur Leopards would look good in there.

 

[Zoo JOax]

Most criticism of UK zoos pales into insignificance compared to this:-http://www.zoochat.com/1107/pata-zoo-bangkok-86910/

Another relevant post to the topic at hand.

Foreign establishments and their standards are an entirely different discussion. Pata zoo, while bad doesn't even come close to some of the facilities in East Asia. Pata zoo for example has larger 'cages' for it's fishing cats, otters, hornbills and loris than the RSCC

back on topic.

Doesn't the RSCC (got to love the name) win every category here? A new collection building new and totally unacceptable 'cages'. Closure didn't come quickly enough.

 

[gentle lemur]

Edinburghs current big cat row (except lions) is bad for big cats but ok for wolverine etc....
Edinburghs current monkey house is disgraceful and I'm surprised it gets so little criticism! Living Links and Budongo are so good it is frustrating!

In my opinion, you have got this the wrong way round: the Edinburgh cat row is not too bad, as cats are pretty lazy creatures but they can make use of the vertical space in these enclosures. But I do feel sorry for the Edinburgh wolverines after watching the ones at Whipsnade use all the space available in their big paddock.
I don't like the aesthetics of the Monkey House at Edinburgh at all or the tiny indoor cubicles at each end - but the other indoor cages are more spacious than those at many other zoos (particularly the ones at Twycross) and the private areas above the cages are a good feature; the outdoor enclosures also look grim, but they are tall which provides a fair amount of usable space for each species. Nonetheless I would like to see this building replaced soon so that larger groups of monkeys could be accommodated.

Alan

 

[IanRRobinson]

In my opinion, you have got this the wrong way round: the Edinburgh cat row is not too bad, as cats are pretty lazy creatures but they can make use of the vertical space in these enclosures. But I do feel sorry for the Edinburgh wolverines after watching the ones at Whipsnade use all the space available in their big paddock.
I don't like the aesthetics of the Monkey House at Edinburgh at all or the tiny indoor cubicles at each end - but the other indoor cages are more spacious than those at many other zoos (particularly the ones at Twycross) and the private areas above the cages are a good feature; the outdoor enclosures also look grim, but they are tall which provides a fair amount of usable space for each species. Nonetheless I would like to see this building replaced soon so that larger groups of monkeys could be accommodated.

Alan

I agree. The height of those Monkey House cages at Edinburgh makes a great deal of difference - surely it isn't space as such that matters, but whether it's suitable for the needs of the species being kept?

It's been some time since I went to Edinburgh, but the really odd thing that I recall was the ground level tunnels that led from indoors to outdoors; very odd for primates!

Another relevant post to the topic at hand.

Foreign establishments and their standards are an entirely different discussion. Pata zoo, while bad doesn't even come close to some of the facilities in East Asia. Pata zoo for example has larger 'cages' for it's fishing cats, otters, hornbills and loris than the RSCC

back on topic.

Doesn't the RSCC (got to love the name) win every category here? A new collection building new and totally unacceptable 'cages'. Closure didn't come quickly enough.

I suspect that the adjective at the top was meant to be 'irrelevant', but I'd better thank you for what I am sure was an unmeant compliment. It is relevant to look at pictures like that before going overboard. UK zoos by worldwide standards are pretty good, and they're subject to stringent welfare checks.

Todd Dalton arguably went to the wrong part of the country and bought up a site already dominated by a poorly built tropical house. However, in bringing into the UK unrelated Fishing Cats, Rusty-Spotted Cats, and in getting UK zoos interested again in Sun Bears and Smooth-coated Otters he did the zoo community a service.

 

[Mr T]

It's been some time since I went to Edinburgh, but the really odd thing that I recall was the ground level tunnels that led from indoors to outdoors; very odd for primates!

You have to remember that not all primates are arboreal. I have been to Edinburgh and remember seeing drills in the monkey house, which are primarily a terrestrial primate. I have seen lots of other primate enclosures where the access between enclosures is at ground level.

 

[Zoo JOax]

Back on topic.
The sea lion exhibit at whipsnade is currently under review.

 

[Pertinax]

You have to remember that not all primates are arboreal. I have been to Edinburgh and remember seeing drills in the monkey house, which are primarily a terrestrial primate. I have seen lots of other primate enclosures where the access between enclosures is at ground level.

Its true Drills and Mandrills are esentially terrestrial in the wild, but in zoos they tend to use all levels in the more limited space at their disposal. The Drills at Port Lympne have one of the older-style tall cages and they scuttle about along the topmost branches and beams as much as they use the ground. So I think the height/level of access between indoor/outdoor in the Edinburgh house is largely irrelevant.

More important perhaps is whether the house as a whole is still adequate for the occupants in this day and age, as its one of the few 'older style' Monkey Houses left in a mainstream UK Zoo. Hopefully revenue from the Pandas etc will allow for a revue/improvement/new build(?) for this house at some stage soon, as Edinburgh houses an important and eclectic Monkey collection- particularly the Drills and the several African Guenon species, which still breed successfully, despite the rather outdated surroundings.

 

[Al]

The monkey house at Edinburgh has certainly seen better days only because now it is pretty old. That being said I believe all it's in habitants are in perfect condition, both physically and mentally. The enclosures may be on the small side compared to some more modern open topped exhibits but that doesn't always mean the primates are less happy. Edinburghs enclosures are full of enrichment and I know the Edinburgh primate team are amongst the most professional and forward thinking if any in Europe I've had the pleasure of meeting. However I am sure all the staff would like to develop all the older enclosures to the high standard of the newer modern exhibits like budongo etc. I hope the increase in visitors from the giant pandas helps them realise all their wishes as they certainly deserve it!

On a separate note Edinburgh must arguably have one of the best primate collections in the UK!

 

[Pertinax]

That being said I believe all it's in habitants are in perfect condition, both physically and mentally.

On a separate note Edinburgh must arguably have one of the best primate collections in the UK!

I don't doubt that for a moment Its obviously still okay as they are one of only a handful of zoos breeding the several Guenon species that they have, anymore.

It is just a pity however that, as you say. arguably one of the best primate collections in the UK is now living in such an old-style house. Its ripe for change.