Snowleopard's 2022 Road Trip: Denmark, Sweden & Norway

DavidBrown said:
Are there any AZA-accredited zoos that have chimp exhibits that you would consider as poor as Copenhagen?

Preemptively, I know that you aren't a fan of Sacramento Zoo, Oakland Zoo, and San Francisco Zoo chimp exhibits and I'm not going to defend them as anything more than barely adequate, if that. If the new zoo develops in Sacramento then that exhibit at least will be gone in the next few years.
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There are zero AZA-accredited zoos in the USA that have Chimpanzee exhibits as poor as the one at Copenhagen Zoo. Your examples of Sacramento, Oakland and San Francisco are all barely adequate, but far above Copenhagen simply because they have outdoor enclosures. In fact, they look fantastic compared to Copenhagen!

However, there are obviously non-AZA-accredited zoos in the U.S. that have some very poor Chimpanzee 'enclosures'. Here are 5 examples from 5 different U.S. states.

Hovatter's Wildlife Zoo (West Virginia):

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@TinoPup

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@TinoPup

GW Exotic Animal Park (Oklahoma) - recently closed, but where are the apes now?

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West Coast Game Park Safari (Oregon):

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Wild Wilderness Drive Through Safari (Arkansas):

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DeYoung Family Zoo (Wisconsin) - although I'm not sure if this park still has a chimp:

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Continuing on the topic of Chimpanzees...

Now that I've had two European road trips under my belt, I'm a bit disillusioned with the Chimpanzee exhibits that I've seen across the pond. This time around I saw chimps at 6 zoos. Aalborg's enclosure is very outdated; Boras has an island that is arguably one of the weakest exhibits in the zoo and due for an expansion in the future; Kolmarden has around 20 chimps but the space for them is far too small; Kristiansand has a forested island for its Chimpanzees but again the space is not extensive; Copenhagen has 10 chimps in a bedroom; and that leaves Odense with the best exhibit courtesy of a lot of height and a lush island. That is the only one of the 6 that I'd give high praise to.

I visited a lot of European zoos in 2019 and 18 of them had Chimpanzees. There were some terrific exhibits with the three best being Burgers, Osnabruck and Beekse Bergen, but many average to poor ones as well. Of the grand total of 24 Chimpanzee exhibits that I've seen on my European travels, there aren't a lot that I'd rave about. Maybe I'm being too harsh? :) Chimpanzees are amazing animals to watch in a zoo, especially in a large group in a spacious enclosure, so why do so many zoos not continue to showcase those apes in modern, high-quality exhibits?

There aren’t any major American zoos that have invested in Chimpanzees in recent years, with chimps being showcased approximately 50% less than either Gorillas or Orangutans in North American zoos. The most recent chimpanzee exhibits include Houston (2010) and Oregon (2021), although in the case of Oregon it’s more of a renovation of an older exhibit. Why the lack of interest in chimps? In Terry Maple’s new book, Atlanta’s Iconic Ape: The Life of Willie B. (2021), he says that “compared to their close relatives, gorillas and orangs, chimpanzees do not suffer captivity gladly. For this reason, many zoos no longer exhibit them, preferring to offer quieter, calmer species to the public. Chimpanzees also invite criticism as people perceive them as unhappy, even angry. Another issue is the fact that chimpanzees in groups have fatally injured each other, and this too calls attention to the deficiencies of their situation.” Maybe he is correct!

The 18 European zoos that I visited that held Chimpanzees in 2019: Stichting AAP (Almere, NL), Artis Royal Zoo (Amsterdam, NL), Zoo Antwerp (Antwerp, BE), Pakawi Park (Olmen, BE), Safari Parc Monde Sauvage (Aywaille, BE), Zoo Neuwied (Neuwied, DE), Wuppertal Zoo (Wuppertal, DE), ZOOM Erlebniswelt (Gelsenkirchen, DE), Krefeld Zoo (Krefeld, DE), Dierenrijk (Animal Kingdom) (Nuenen, NL), Safaripark Beekse Bergen (Hilvarenbeek, NL), Burgers' Zoo (Arnhem, NL), Berlin Zoo (Berlin, DE), Erlebnis Zoo Hannover (Hannover, DE), Serengeti-Park (Hodenhagen, DE), Osnabruck Zoo (Osnabruck, DE), Nordhorn Zoo (Nordhorn, DE) and Dierenpark Amersfoort (Amersfoort, NL).
 
snowleopard said:
You must have missed my Okapi comments amidst my rant. ;)
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Apparently, I did. Probably due to being emotionally overwhelmed by said rant(sic). Close to the dark side, you came ;);) And there’s always room for great zoo posters...:D
LARTIS said:
But just because there are worse I would call them off and the zoo shop comment might rather meant for snowleopards mood than claiming it could make up for unacceptable condition.
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I'm not sure whether I understood this completely, but you seem to have missed the tongue-in-cheek aspect of my remark. And the gift shop there is indeed nice. ;)
 
snowleopard said:
Your examples of Sacramento, Oakland and San Francisco are all barely adequate, but far above Copenhagen simply because they have outdoor enclosures.
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Based on that criterium, quite a lot of American exhibits for various species, including great apes, could be considered inferior, including notable zoos such as Bronx, Omaha or Brookfield. Don’t get me wrong - I fullheartily agree that outdoor exhibits are a massive benefit for pretty much every species - IF done properly and aptly. However, I don't recall the chimp exhibit at Copenhagen Zoo as being as bad as you make it. Which isn't a license to not improve upon it. And I'm pretty sure that the current director is aware of it; I will ask him the next time I run into him at a conference. ;)

And yeah, maybe Mr. Maple is correct. For once, I don't mind any zoo not having chimps. But given that I'm not a fan of great apes, elephants, meerkats or any other all too popular mammalian species that take up space for the far more precious, interesting and beautiful reptiles, amphibians, bats etc. to begin with, I might not be the right guy to ask. ;) ;)
 
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On the topic of poor chimpanzee enclosures, Zoo de la Fleche in France had a terrible enclosure when I last visited in August 2019. According to post 5 in this (La fleche) thread, there have been plans to improve it since 2009, possibly earlier. I don't know if any progress is being made on this.
 
Kalaw said:
On the topic of poor chimpanzee enclosures, Zoo de la Fleche in France had a terrible enclosure when I last visited in August 2019.
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I wouldn't say it was terrible. I can't remember the indoor being viewable to the public.
According to the latest photos in the gallery, they're no longer visible at all and are not on the zoo's website.
 
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snowleopard said:
There are zero AZA-accredited zoos in the USA that have Chimpanzee exhibits as poor as the one at Copenhagen Zoo. Your examples of Sacramento, Oakland and San Francisco are all barely adequate, but far above Copenhagen simply because they have outdoor enclosures. In fact, they look fantastic compared to Copenhagen!

However, there are obviously non-AZA-accredited zoos in the U.S. that have some very poor Chimpanzee 'enclosures'. Here are 5 examples from 5 different U.S. states.

Hovatter's Wildlife Zoo (West Virginia):

full


@TinoPup

full


@TinoPup

GW Exotic Animal Park (Oklahoma) - recently closed, but where are the apes now?

full


West Coast Game Park Safari (Oregon):

full


Wild Wilderness Drive Through Safari (Arkansas):

full


DeYoung Family Zoo (Wisconsin) - although I'm not sure if this park still has a chimp:

full



Continuing on the topic of Chimpanzees...

Now that I've had two European road trips under my belt, I'm a bit disillusioned with the Chimpanzee exhibits that I've seen across the pond. This time around I saw chimps at 6 zoos. Aalborg's enclosure is very outdated; Boras has an island that is arguably one of the weakest exhibits in the zoo and due for an expansion in the future; Kolmarden has around 20 chimps but the space for them is far too small; Kristiansand has a forested island for its Chimpanzees but again the space is not extensive; Copenhagen has 10 chimps in a bedroom; and that leaves Odense with the best exhibit courtesy of a lot of height and a lush island. That is the only one of the 6 that I'd give high praise to.

I visited a lot of European zoos in 2019 and 18 of them had Chimpanzees. There were some terrific exhibits with the three best being Burgers, Osnabruck and Beekse Bergen, but many average to poor ones as well. Of the grand total of 24 Chimpanzee exhibits that I've seen on my European travels, there aren't a lot that I'd rave about. Maybe I'm being too harsh? :) Chimpanzees are amazing animals to watch in a zoo, especially in a large group in a spacious enclosure, so why do so many zoos not continue to showcase those apes in modern, high-quality exhibits?

There aren’t any major American zoos that have invested in Chimpanzees in recent years, with chimps being showcased approximately 50% less than either Gorillas or Orangutans in North American zoos. The most recent chimpanzee exhibits include Houston (2010) and Oregon (2021), although in the case of Oregon it’s more of a renovation of an older exhibit. Why the lack of interest in chimps? In Terry Maple’s new book, Atlanta’s Iconic Ape: The Life of Willie B. (2021), he says that “compared to their close relatives, gorillas and orangs, chimpanzees do not suffer captivity gladly. For this reason, many zoos no longer exhibit them, preferring to offer quieter, calmer species to the public. Chimpanzees also invite criticism as people perceive them as unhappy, even angry. Another issue is the fact that chimpanzees in groups have fatally injured each other, and this too calls attention to the deficiencies of their situation.” Maybe he is correct!

The 18 European zoos that I visited that held Chimpanzees in 2019: Stichting AAP (Almere, NL), Artis Royal Zoo (Amsterdam, NL), Zoo Antwerp (Antwerp, BE), Pakawi Park (Olmen, BE), Safari Parc Monde Sauvage (Aywaille, BE), Zoo Neuwied (Neuwied, DE), Wuppertal Zoo (Wuppertal, DE), ZOOM Erlebniswelt (Gelsenkirchen, DE), Krefeld Zoo (Krefeld, DE), Dierenrijk (Animal Kingdom) (Nuenen, NL), Safaripark Beekse Bergen (Hilvarenbeek, NL), Burgers' Zoo (Arnhem, NL), Berlin Zoo (Berlin, DE), Erlebnis Zoo Hannover (Hannover, DE), Serengeti-Park (Hodenhagen, DE), Osnabruck Zoo (Osnabruck, DE), Nordhorn Zoo (Nordhorn, DE) and Dierenpark Amersfoort (Amersfoort, NL).
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As Tinopup said, two of the GW chimps (Bo and Joe) ended up at a sanctuary where conditions look to be better. The others died.

Bo - Center for Great Apes

It will be a shame if the number of holders of chimps declines in Europe as, as you say, they are astonishing animals to watch held in the right conditions, though they are challenging to keep. It’s quite shocking to see a zoo keeping them with no outdoor area though I’m guessing they are in good condition / well cared for in themselves. Hopefully an ideal place to improve.

Also reading the history of those chimps in the sanctuary it’s a catalogue of desperately disgusting exploitation - performing animals producing young chimps for petting zoos and the pet trade living their lives in tiny cages. When people say chimps are ‘mean’ they surely have nothing on some humans.

Far better for them to live well cared for lives in accredited and well managed collections.
 
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snowleopard said:
Zoo/Aquarium # 24: Kobenhavn Zoo/Copenhagen Zoo (Copenhagen, DK)

I wasn’t a big fan of Copenhagen Zoo.
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I visited Copenhagen zoo years ago and it was substandard already. I share your feeling that it is a very frustrating zoo: it takes good care for visitors, but animals suffer in much too small enclosures. And it seems to have no obvious shortage of funds. Its director seems to have some weird views on animal welfare, too.

Old zoos take two paths. One is to demolish whole sections and build spacious up-to-date exhibits, like Leipzig, Rotterdam or Cologne elephant house. Another path is to keep buildings outdated decades ago, do makeshift changes and some gimmicks for the public. Copenhagen is perhaps the worst example, other are London and Amsterdam.

To say something positive about Copenhagen, years ago it had the best children zoo I seen before and later. Children zoos are mostly random play areas with random small animals. Copenhagen actually was educative. It was themed about a wild rabbit, and the playground was themed around life of the rabbit, with children seeing if they run as fast as a rabbit etc. I wonder if it is still there?
 
Jurek7 said:
Its director seems to have some weird views on animal welfare, too.
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If this is an allusion to the whole "Marius the giraffe" incident, be assured that the killing of surplus animals is a common practice in Scandinavian zoos, including those who have been laudated in this thread. And don't kid yourself thinking that this isn't happening in other, non-Scandinavian zoos (especially in regard to all those pygmy goat kids in the petting zoos); they are just not so open about it. The current director isn't the one of 2014, btw.
 
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I am not a big fan of Copenhagen either and I agree with most of your criticisms, but I do think you are overly harsh sometimes. I too cannot understand why there are still brown bears being kept and bred in that enclosure, nor am I a fan of the polar bear and panda exhibit.

But complaining the savanna is a dustbowl is unfair. You should be glad that Copenhagen doesn't find green lawns more important than the climate (looking at you American zoo). Again when you visit @snowleopard we are seeing some extreme summers, which makes me doubt whether it is climate change or a continent in shock of a Canadian zoo visitor :p. Copenhagen's savanna never had much grass, but certainly did not strike me as a dustbowl, visiting in one of the driest summers ever in Europe makes things look worse. Just be glad that the looks of a lawn weren't more important than overexploiting ground water.

Re the chimpanzees: Copenhagen is actually the European studbook holder and as such does have an enormous amount of know-how (and a pure W-African breeding group). I have seen plans for outdoor enclosures, but it is indeed strange and unacceptable they still aren't there. The two indoor enclosures do however provide more than many outdoor enclosures do (and in Denmark chimps would spent the majority of their times indoors anyways). They are not too bright, offer privacy and from what I remember plenty of enrichment. Outdoor enclosures are necessary asap, but there is a good basis to work with, even if you cannot look past the concrete.

For elephants, I think that the American amount of space is overrated, studies have shown that what you use the space for is more important than the size of it. Copenhagen might lack size, but is relatively structured with multiple feeding stations and enrichment. Contrary to large predators like polar bears and leopards, elephants in the wild seem to move as little as possible if food and water is plenty. A study in Heidelberg found that even in an enclosure less than an acre, the elephants would walk as much as they do in the wild.
 
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It's fascinating to see how my fellow zoo nerds respond to my ZooChat threads. Quite often, whether it is rural Wisconsin or southern Norway, I don't have as many comments or private messages because I'm visiting zoos that very few zoo nerds have ever been to. Then I go to a place like Copenhagen and receive loads of messages, just like on my 2019 Dutch/Belgian/German Rhine Valley trip where I toured many famous, notable zoos. If I ever do an extensive road trip through the United Kingdom, which I'm sure will eventually occur, then there will hopefully be an avalanche of avid British zoo nerds commenting on every review. Which is great!

As for Copenhagen, going through the ZooChat archives it seems that almost everyone agrees with many of my statements about the zoo, even though I was indeed perhaps too harsh. I did state in the 2nd paragraph of the review that in some respects Copenhagen drew the short straw by being the last zoo of the trip. Imagine being in my shoes and seeing world-class tiger exhibits at several zoos, and then coming across an old grotto-like enclosure on the last day. Or two exhibits for bears that were probably the two smallest of the trip. Northern Scandinavia is so impressive for animal exhibits that probably everywhere else looks bad. I mean, Boras Zoo provides a lake for its seals (!!) and tosses its Cheetahs in with its White Rhino herd. ;)

I especially appreciate @lintworm and his comments. Having spent a day at Burgers' Zoo with him in 2019, and reading his popular threads on this site, I know exactly what he thinks about zoos and I knew with certainty that he would also not be a fan of Copenhagen Zoo. However, I feel very strongly about the Chimpanzees and their lack of an outdoor habitat. It's not isolated to Europe as there are a few American zoos with great apes kept entirely indoors. Brookfield and Buffalo have Gorillas with zero access to an outdoor area, in appalling exhibits that are mainly freakish mock-rock atrocities. Those are the only two American zoos, out of around 45 that have Gorillas, without an outdoor yard. There are also a half-dozen American zoos with Orangutans entirely indoors (Birmingham, Brookfield, Cleveland, Fort Wayne, Pittsburgh, Racine) and I think these decisions are indefensible. Out of 900+ American zoos/aquariums, very few keep Chimpanzees as in the U.S. there are a number of 'sanctuaries' and 'ape rescue facilities' that have chimps. Certainly far more than mainstream zoos.

For Copenhagen, regardless of the quality of the indoor area (which in my opinion is far too small anyway), keeping Chimpanzees entirely indoors is dreadful. It's doubly awful when the zoo has spent tens of millions of dollars on other exhibits. I believe that there's a personal discomfort from seeing Chimpanzees and Brown Bears and Polar Bears and all the rest of the big mammals at Copenhagen in exhibits that are pretty tight on space. Whether the animals are content or not is difficult to tell, but the personal discomfort of seeing small enclosures is awkward. Even the African Savanna doesn't give a lot of room for the Giraffes or White Rhinos, both in side yards that are small compared to most other zoos. I'm not sure that Copenhagen even has a location to build a modern Chimpanzee habitat, but think what they could do if they got out of the elephant business! That beautiful Elephant House could be repurposed as a chimp habitat, along with landscaping and fencing the outdoor acre. It would be the best of both worlds and the zoo's huge visitor numbers would not drop whatsoever.
 
snowleopard said:
It's fascinating to see how my fellow zoo nerds respond to my ZooChat threads. Quite often, whether it is rural Wisconsin or southern Norway, I don't have as many comments or private messages because I'm visiting zoos that very few zoo nerds have ever been to. Then I go to a place like Copenhagen and receive loads of messages, just like on my 2019 Dutch/Belgian/German Rhine Valley trip where I toured many famous, notable zoos. If I ever do an extensive road trip through the United Kingdom, which I'm sure will eventually occur, then there will hopefully be an avalanche of avid British zoo nerds commenting on every review. Which is great!
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If you ever do a road trip in Asia i promised i'll respond to every zoo review.
 
snowleopard said:
If I ever do an extensive road trip through the United Kingdom, which I'm sure will eventually occur, then there will hopefully be an avalanche of avid British zoo nerds commenting on every review.
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You absolutely will! :p:D

I would love to see a snowleopard tour of the UK, to hear your thoughts on the zoos that I have grown up with, but it is equally interesting to read this thread. Scandinavia is an area of Europe that I am not remotely familiar with in any respect, least of all its zoos. I knew a fair bit about Den Bla Planet, Copenhagen and Odense prior to this thread, but not about Nordsoen Oceanarium, Givskud Zoo, Kolmarden Wildlife Park, Kristiansand Zoo, Parken Zoo or Nordens Ark. So thank you for this very eye-opening and inspiring thread, snowleopard!
 
I knew next to nothing about Scandinavian zoos before I read this thread, but the thing that stands out to me about them the most is that many of these zoos appear to have extensive tropical animal collections despite being located in a part of the world with such horrible winters. I find it impressive that many of these zoos would invest so much money and space towards exhibits for animals like giraffes, rhinos, chimps, and elephants, even though these exhibits are probably empty for many months out of the year. I wonder how many of these zoos also provide indoor winter exhibits for their cold-intolerant animals, or if many of these animals are just completely off exhibit all winter long.

In the past, when I thought of northern zoos, I would think of the places like the Minnesota Zoo or the Alaska Zoo, which seem to focus entirely on cold tolerant animals from North America and northern Asia. So it’s been very interesting to see these major Scandinavian zoos go in a completely different direction.
 
Negative reviews tend to attract more attention than positive ones. Most YT critics these days do pretty much nothing else. So - nihil novi sub sole.
 
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