Snowleopard's Florida Road Trip

All right, it looks like someone has to stick up for poor ol' Disney. All you folks seem to have come to the conclusion that DAK does not belong in a Top 10 Zoos list for the USA. I utterly disagree! In fact, a year ago I was quoted in a Forbes online article about the World's Best Zoos, and they (not me) put DAK on their list as one of the globe's 15 best zoos. I do happen to agree with that assessment.

First, let me say that there is a movement out there in the zoo world that insists that zoos should be SERIOUS education and conservation centers for viewing animals -- and nothing else! Doggone it, we don't want no stinkin' FUN in our zoos! There are a few big names in the zoo world pushing this idea, and they have many disciples. If you are one of those who believes in this viewpoint, then yes -- DAK will never make your Top Zoos list. It's main violation is that DAK is fun, fun, fun!

I have personally met SnowLeopard and his wife, and I don't believe they are a part of the above mentioned anti-FUN crowd. Rather, I think what they missed in Disney's park is because they have not yet started having children. To fully appreciate DAK, you have to have children along -- preferably children who are Disney-fans. For example, in addition to some GREAT rides, it sounds like you (SnowLeopard) skipped "Tough to Be a Bug", "Finding Nemo", and "Legend of the Lion King". If you did, you missed some of the best that DAK offers. Longtime Disney parkgoers consider "Bug" to be one of the best attractions Disney has ever come up with! It's good enough to be replicated at most of the other Disney parks worldwide. As for "Nemo" and "Lion King", they are both Broadway-quality stage shows -- and all 3 of these entertainment offerings are animal-themed. There are also excellent conservation-themed shows (Pocahontas and the Bird Show) that are very worthwhile and among the best animal shows in any zoo.

Let me explain why I am utterly-convinced that DAK is easily a Top 10 zoo. I am a coauthor of the new travel guidebook, "America's Best Zoos: A Travel Guide for Fans & Families" (available via Amazon). We (my coauthor Jon and I) did NOT write this book for the above-mentioned "no stinkin' FUN in zoos" crowd. In fact, we really didn't write this book for the zoo fanatics on this website -- though we're glad many of you like our book. On the contrary, we wrote our book for the masses -- the many people out there who are not major zoo fans -- but people who enjoy their local zoo and would consider including an out-of-town zoo on a future vacation trip. THESE are the kind of people who have made DAK one of the most popular zoos in the world, and they are the type of people (we believe) who have purchased more than half of the books we've sold.

In his initial review, SnowLeopard said (about DAK): "the fantastic sections are offset by the carnival atmosphere, cartoon characters, and rides." Rather than an "offset", let me advance the idea that the "the carnival atmosphere, cartoon characters, and rides" are actually keys to what makes this zoo truly great. Consider this: HOW MANY of the visitors to DAK are there simply BECAUSE OF the "carnival atmosphere, cartoon characters, and rides"? The fact is, the whole world is NOT made up of people who love zoos as much as we do! I personally have family members who have no real interest in visiting a zoo, yet they LOVE going to Disney's Animal Kingdom! So in between riding the Everest roller coaster and watching "Tough to Be a Bug", they walk through the excellent Asian and African animal exhibits, and then they ride the amazing Kilamanjaro Safari. BECAUSE OF the rides and Disney atmosphere, many people have been exposed to what is great about zoos! One could say that DAK is an "evangelical tool" to help "convert" the non-believing public to "believe" in zoos the way we do.

Then again, if you're one of those "don't want no stinkin' Fun in your serious Zoos" folks, I'm not going to change your mind.
 
ANyhuis said:
Then again, if you're one of those "don't want no stinkin' Fun in your serious Zoos" folks, I'm not going to change your mind.
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Allen - are you suggesting that animals are not "fun" enough in their own right? These zoos which, apparently, don't allow fun still - if they're good - get many, many visitors. Those I know who have been to DAK - non zoo people - have hated its crass commercialisation. And I do feel deeply uncomfortable with the whole idea of having rides and roller cooasters next to animals. What does that say about the way we should view those animals? As a father of four young children, i can think of nothig so horrible as a combination zoo / theme park. Theme park? Fine (but not really my cup of tea). Zoo? Great.

And I appreciate that the shows may be great, but if they have little to do with natural history (or if they present a Disneyfied version of it) they do not belong in a zoo. I love football, but I wouldn't want a match to take place in the middle of a zoo; likewise, a theatre show should eb in a theatre, and captive aniamls in a zoo. Does this make me an old misery? To Allen, maybe it does. Do I think animals should be taken seriously? Absolutely. Do I get sick of people thinking zoos are nothing more than places to take children when it's too sunny to go to the soft-play centre? Really and truly.

One last question. Why do the Museum of Modren Art in New York, or the British Museum, or the great natural history museums of the world, not feel the need to have roller coasters and people dressed up as characters? Because they take themselevs seriosuly - and as a consequence are taken seriously by the general public.
 
I don't hate Disney, I just don't think it one of the best zoos. I personally enjoy a walk around my home Cleveland Zoo than Disney and Cleveland Zoo is absolutely nothing special for those of you who have not been. I also think Disney does not compare to the very similar Wild Animal Park in San Diego. Overall I just think Disney's Animal Kingdom is far to overrated and i think it gives people a bad image of a zoo because when people go there they think it is nothing like a zoo and is way better, however little do they know that there are countless zoos in the United States that are way better. If I had to choose between Disney and Busch Gardens I would choose Busch Gardens.
 
Sooty,
I worried that you might take my post personally -- as I truly do respect you, and NO, I don't think you're an "old miser".

First, from Disney's perspective, DAK is "not a zoo", and in fact they see it as a theme park first. But the fact is, it truly IS a zoo, which is why we included it in our book. So if they were first a zoo, then decided to add some roller coasters, I'd see your point, but that's not the case.

Secondly, of course I think that zoos are FUN, even without the shows and rides. But I'm a fanatical lover of zoos and animals -- and quite frankly the vast majority of people in this world are not like me (or you). We may not like it, but many, many people do NOT see zoos as fun -- not without some rides, shows, and other non-traditional additions. We can sit and sulk over how uninformed and ignorant these non-zoolovers are, or we can take them to DAK and try to win them over!

"Do I get sick of people thinking zoos are nothing more than places to take children when it's too sunny to go to the soft-play centre? Really and truly."
>> I understand your frustration, Sooty, but here's the facts: Here in America, close to 75% of all visitors at zoos are either children or their guardians. Thus, if zoos want to succeed, they MUST accomodate children!
 
I think i'm somewhere in the middle on this one. Zoos need to attract visitors but at the same time must teach their visitors about animals and conservation. I think that this can be done through a combination of entertaining graphics and enriching enclosures. The former educates and gets the visitor interested and the latter gives them something to watch. IMO, commercialization destroys the integrity of the experience and i don't really think that roller coasters and carnivals help either. Although i admire what disney tried to do, zoos can be made fun without being theme parks - it's all in the presentation, not the thousands of shops, cartoon characters and thrill rides.
 
BlackRhino:
I respect your opinion! But I'd love to hear what you think ten years from now when you have children of your own.
 
I am both a fan of zoos, and of Disney parks. It is easy to overlook the true work of art that Disney theme parks are. Every surface is part of the story, nothing is done haphazardly. So many people are easily distracted by the stuff that merchandising and marketing place on top of what is a true work of art. Disney's Animal Kingdom is not just an "Animal-themed theme park," it is a park that tells the story of man's interaction with animals. The walkways in the Oasis are rambling and confusing on purpose, this is to get people to slow down enough that they will be mentally prepared for what they will see in the rest of the park (I'll admit it doesn't quite work the way they hoped all the time) Discovery Island holds many of the necessary functions of the theme park, the restaurants and shops, but in its design it is a village that celebrates animals in everything it does. Dinoland USA looks like a crappy roadside attraction on purpose. The story of dinosaurs can only be told through the perspective of man's imagination. The real worlds of Africa and Asia are shown in a modern day world where man conflicts with nature on every corner. The decaying temple that snowleopard seems to dislike is there to illustrate the pattern of man and nature at odds. The poacher storyline to Kilimanjaro Safaris illustrates the difficulties that those living on the borders of and making a living off nature reserves in Africa. In this case the conflict is between the people of Harambe, who manage the reserve and the poachers who take what they can for short-term gain. This story plays out not only on the ride, but in line as you wait to board. The Kali River Rapids ride tells of slash and burn agriculture and charcoal harvesting. The climax of this ride is a burnt out forest with real flames. The Everest rollercoaster fills in the story of the imaginary. The yeti certainly exists in the imagination of men, and in this case is seen as the protector of the mountain. The train you board is a new enterprise that takes you through the forbidden mountain on your way to Everest, and the yeti is after you, because you are a trespasser here. So, while many can get distracted by cartoon characters and plush, there is much, much more to this park than they realize.
 
Ituri said:
I am both a fan of zoos, and of Disney parks. It is easy to overlook the true work of art that Disney theme parks are. Every surface is part of the story, nothing is done haphazardly. So many people are easily distracted by the stuff that merchandising and marketing place on top of what is a true work of art. Disney's Animal Kingdom is not just an "Animal-themed theme park," it is a park that tells the story of man's interaction with animals. The walkways in the Oasis are rambling and confusing on purpose, this is to get people to slow down enough that they will be mentally prepared for what they will see in the rest of the park (I'll admit it doesn't quite work the way they hoped all the time) Discovery Island holds many of the necessary functions of the theme park, the restaurants and shops, but in its design it is a village that celebrates animals in everything it does. Dinoland USA looks like a crappy roadside attraction on purpose. The story of dinosaurs can only be told through the perspective of man's imagination. The real worlds of Africa and Asia are shown in a modern day world where man conflicts with nature on every corner. The decaying temple that snowleopard seems to dislike is there to illustrate the pattern of man and nature at odds. The poacher storyline to Kilimanjaro Safaris illustrates the difficulties that those living on the borders of and making a living off nature reserves in Africa. In this case the conflict is between the people of Harambe, who manage the reserve and the poachers who take what they can for short-term gain. This story plays out not only on the ride, but in line as you wait to board. The Kali River Rapids ride tells of slash and burn agriculture and charcoal harvesting. The climax of this ride is a burnt out forest with real flames. The Everest rollercoaster fills in the story of the imaginary. The yeti certainly exists in the imagination of men, and in this case is seen as the protector of the mountain. The train you board is a new enterprise that takes you through the forbidden mountain on your way to Everest, and the yeti is after you, because you are a trespasser here. So, while many can get distracted by cartoon characters and plush, there is much, much more to this park than they realize.
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Well said Ituri!!!

I am also a big fan of Disney parks (have been to Disneyland at least 100 times in the past 3 years) and I'm a big zoo fan, so I would do anything to visit DAK.

I once read that Dinoland represented extinction, and that without any help then some animals will soon be extinct.
 
ANyhuis said:
BlackRhino:
I respect your opinion! But I'd love to hear what you think ten years from now when you have children of your own.
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I respect your opinion to, and I can see why some people love it and automatically place it in their top 10. However, the place just does not impress me like the San Diego Zoo did and the SDWAP and even the Toledo Zoo. That is what makes this website great, the fact that everyone likes different zoos and different types of exhibits.
 
okapikpr said:
Every aspect of DAK has a story behind it, even the footprints left in the cemet of the visitor's path.
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And here's another thing! If I go to a 'traditional' zoo, I don't need to have a stroy told for me - I get presented with a hyena, in an enclosure, and my imagination does the rest. I ahve to work at it. If i go to a theme park zoo (and there are some in Europe - Gelsenkirchen and Hannover being the two best examples - I become a passive consumer, who has the story told for me. And I don't think I like that.

One thng i must say at this point is that I've never been to DAK, and thus am basing my negativity partly on prejudice and partly on secondary sources. And I fully acknowledge that there is a zoo for every person: not everyone is going to be thrilled by Walsrode Bird Park, or by Tierpark Berlin. My local zoo is not my cup of tea at all - it's like a very small time disney wannabe place. But I don't go there very often, and so long as the animals are well cared for 9and I think they are), where's the harm. It's only when, as mentioned above, the general public think that one way is 'better' for the animals (because they've been hoodwinked by the 'show') that I genuinely get grumpy. I grew up being told that zoos were evil, but safari parks were lovely. It scarred me!
 
Wow, thousands of words were debated over when it came to Disney's Animal Kingdom, but no one said anything about the Jacksonville Zoo! This next mini-review won't be like a normal zoo's, but stay tuned for my glowing praise for Miami Metrozoo in the next day or two.

White Oak Conservation Centre Review - 5 hours

White Oak Conservation Center

The link to the website will answer any questions that people have about this private facility that is not open to the public. Normally it costs $1,000 to have a tour that lasts a few hours, but due to the joy of being on ZooChat my wife Debbie and I spent an amazing 5 hours at this northern Florida park for free! It truly is a superb establishment that has had a fantastic record in breeding endangered species, and the collection would make any zoo fan salivate with envy. Not many people in the surrounding area even know of its existence.

I would never have guessed a year ago when I joined ZooChat that I would already have personally met 4 members of this website, but that is exactly what has happened this year. On our epic summer road trip my wife and I met an anonymous ZooChat member who is a keeper at a major zoo, and we spent an hour touring behind the scenes with that individual; then we met Allen, the author of "America's Best Zoos", for a lengthy chat over lunch and a tour at the Indianapolis Zoo; then Mario the volunteer at the Los Angeles Zoo who graciously showed us around; and now it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who spent his day off showing us around an impressive and yet secretive park in Florida. This ZooChat member and I have been online friends for close to a year now, sending messages back and forth and also mailing away zoo memorabilia packages for each other, and now I owe him big time for the exciting day at White Oak.

Highlights:

Cheetahs - there are cheetah pens all over this 600 acre centre, and every time we turned around there was another cheetah in a well shaded, spacious enclosure. In total the centre has around 30 cheetahs, and the true highlight of the visit was when we were allowed to venture inside the pen of a tame cheetah! It was a full-grown animal but only just over a year-old, and she was kept with a large dog for company due to being abandoned as a youngster. My wife and I were allowed to pet and touch the animal, and it was the experience of a lifetime.

Okapis - the centre has around 15 okapis, and just like the cheetahs ever time we jumped off of the tour van there was another okapi sticking its long tongue out and licking itself. We were allowed into an enclosure that contained 3 okapi, but the animals were all too skittish for petting and handling. It was still an immense thrill to be so close to such gorgeous and unique creatures.

Rhinos - there are white, black, indian and sumatran rhinos at this centre, and they are working at capturing some Javans for 2009. I'm joking about the Javans (haha), but I've got photos of the other 4 species. I told my wife after we spent time at the Cincinnati Zoo in the summer that she'd more than likely never in her life see sumatran rhinos again...and then there we were scratching and petting "Harapan" at White Oak! We also admired the black and indian rhinos from close-up, and got some serious scratching and petting time in with a massive white rhino who was intent on positioning his/her head through an opening in the exhibit.

Big Cats - a rare Florida panther was resting in some grass in a spacious, naturalistic exhibit, while two other cougars were half-sleeping up in a massive tree. There was also a pair of tiger brothers lounging in their expansive and well shaded habitat.

Birds - currasows were there by the dozens (slight exaggeration), as well as a semi-tame wattled crane, bald eagles, kori bustards, cassowaries, cockatoos and the extremely rare Mississippi sandhill cranes.

Hoofstock - banteng, addra gazelle, eland, gerenuk, roan antelope, Grevy's zebra, eastern bongo, lesser kudu, a single baird's tapir, nile lechwe and somali wild ass were all found in enormous, multi-acre paddocks. One of the enclosures just for a small herd of Grevy's zebra was about 12 acres in size!

We had a grand tour of the laboratory, autopsy room, medical office, komodo dragon house and several other areas that were remarkable and intriguing. The entire day was fabulous and in all honesty it was one of the true highlights of 2008. Nowhere else on earth can one find 4 rhino species at a single location, and the massive numbers of cheetah, okapi, eland and other species make this a must-see for any zoo fan lucky enough to get a tour.
 
Jacksonville comments

snowleopard said:
Wow, thousands of words were debated over when it came to Disney's Animal Kingdom, but no one said anything about the Jacksonville Zoo!
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OK, SnowLeopard, I'll give you my thoughts on your Jacksonville review. Overall, I pretty much agree with you -- though I didn't see the great apes area nearly as bad as you did. When I was there a bit over a year ago, they still had chimpanzees, which meant that lone male silverback was still keeping company. I imagine they've had to isolate him for good reason, however. Also, in contrary to your review, I was actually quite impressed with the bonobo exhibit. Maybe that was because they (the pygmy chimps) were very, very active and entertaining when I watched them, making full use of their climbing apparatuses.

As for your disappointment over Wild Florida, the one thing I think you missed was just how rare some of those species exhibited are. Having whooping cranes to see is amazing, as they are one of the most endangered species on earth. I'd only seen them once before -- at the International Crane Foundation in Wisconsin. (I've since then also seen them at the San Antonio Zoo.) This area also has two extremely rare subspecies that Florida is famous for -- Florida panthers and Key deer. If you had realized this, you might have noticed that these specimens were actually a bit smaller than "mountain lions" and "white-tailed deer".

I'm glad you took the time to tour and review the excellent Play Park. It's truly one of the best children's zoos in America -- and we so noted this in our book, putting it among the nation's Top 10 for children's zoos. The other thing I really like about this zoo is the two separate, and very specific, reptile houses. You're right, they are quite small, but I just really appreciated the idea of having specifically African venomous snakes, displayed right among the other African animals, and a similar set-up for the Florida reptiles.
 
Since there's no place else to post this, I'll report that I too just completed a short "zoo trip" -- to Oklahoma. I had some "use it or lose it" vacation days to kill, so I took advantage of the cheap gas and drove 10 hours to Oklahoma. On the way there, I stopped for an hour at the St. Louis Zoo. My #1 goal was to see Penguin & Puffin Coast, which my coauthor Jon has raved about. He's right -- it's truly the best penguin habitat I've ever seen!

After braving some rather scary weather to get there, I toured the fairly new Oklahoma Aquarium (just south of Tulsa), the Oklahoma City Zoo, and the Tulsa Zoo. I really liked the Oklahoma Aquarium, as it had a very complete collection of aquatic species. Most impressive were the big bull sharks which you see from a circular glass tunnel. My afternoon at the Oklahoma City Zoo was the coldest zoo touring I think I've ever done. Naturally, most of the animals were off exhibit -- though I was surprised to see a cheetah outside, and downright shocked to see an alligator at the bottom of his pool. (I'm guessing that outdoor pool was heated.) I went to the OKCity Zoo primarily to get my first look at the new (2006) Oklahoma Trails exhibit -- which both Jon & I rated as among the Top 25 Exhibits in the USA. SnowLeopard, I believe, also raved about this excellent exhibit -- and both he and Jon are right! I was not disappointed. I saw one of the most complete, well themed, and well designed exhibits of native (to Oklahoma) animals anywhere! While the exhibit area was smaller than I had expected, every single turn on this trail revealed more fascinating and upclose views of swift foxes, mountain lions, coyotes, native birds, bison, bats, a sleeping grizzly bear, and much more. Another extremely well-designed and beautiful exhibit area was Cat Forest, with more than a half-dozen wild cat species, including Sumatran tigers.

On Tuesday morning, I arrived at the gate of the Tulsa Zoo all alone -- due to the sign there telling me they were closed for the day, due to dangerous ice on their walkways. So I pulled my "I'm an author" routine and used my cell phone to call my Public Relations contact in the Zoo. Soon, the friendly Angela was driving me around the zoo in an enclosed golf cart. My abbreviated tour included a walk through the excellent Tropical American Rainforest building -- with the highlight being a look at dozens of colorful point dart frogs, right behind a big log with NO barriers! I also saw their fun Elephant Encounter museum, Chimpanzee Connection with 2 baby chimps, and best of all, a slow walk through one of my all-time favorite zoo exhibits, the North American Living Museum. This was one of only 5 exhibits which I put on my "Top 25 Exhibits" list in both of my books (including my old 1994 book). I badly wanted to see this unique animal and natural history museum again, as I wondered if it was showing any signs of age. On the contrary, it's gotten better! Among the many chances to see animals from the Arctic, deserts, Eastern forests, and Southern lowlands, there's a great earthquake simulator, a realistic cave to walk through, a large desert room filled with cacti, a Cajun shack, and much, much more.
 
@ANyhuis: thanks for the reviews! I enjoyed the Jacksonville Zoo's children's area, but you actually didn't put it in the top ten list for kid zoos in your book. Perhaps it should have gone in there...haha. As far as your comments on Disney's Animal Kingdom, I fully agree that people really have to bring children to get the most out of the park, and in all honesty Debbie and I had planned to see the "Lion King" show but just ran out of time. I really wanted to drive over and spend an hour at the Disney Lodge, and in total we spent a full 8 hours between the park and the lodge. If we ever go back with children and take in all of the rides and shows then we'll definitely have to stay for 2 days to see it all.

You are well aware that I loved my visit to the Oklahoma City Zoo, and with 2011's $23 million Asian section that zoo should solidify its place in my top ten list as it appears to be moving up in the zoo world. I agree that the Oklahoma Trails and Big Cat Forest sections of the zoo are outstanding, but Wild Dog Drive and the impressive hoofstock collection are must sees as well. Are you in Georgia over Christmas? You mentioned visiting the Georgia Aquarium next week, which has the absolutely mind-blowing whale shark tank.
 
Responses to SnowLeopard

snowleopard said:
@ANyhuis: I enjoyed the Jacksonville Zoo's children's area, but you actually didn't put it in the top ten list for kid zoos in your book. Perhaps it should have gone in there...haha.

You are well aware that I loved my visit to the Oklahoma City Zoo, and with 2011's $23 million Asian section that zoo should solidify its place in my top ten list as it appears to be moving up in the zoo world. I agree that the Oklahoma Trails and Big Cat Forest sections of the zoo are outstanding, but Wild Dog Drive and the impressive hoofstock collection are must sees as well. Are you in Georgia over Christmas? You mentioned visiting the Georgia Aquarium next week, which has the absolutely mind-blowing whale shark tank.
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Yikes! It's embarrassing when a reader knows my own book better than I do! Let me just say that Jacksonville was the LAST zoo eliminated from the "Top Ten children's zoos" list, when Jon and I put that list together!

Quick report on Oklahoma City: They've already moved out their Asian elephants (I saw them up in Tulsa), in preparation for the new exhibit. As for Wild Dog Drive, one species is gone. The lone old black-backed jackal has died, and they've replaced her with spectacled bears.

And yes, I'm going with my sister on a big zoo/aquarium tour of the South just after Christmas. In addition to the Georgia Aquarium and Zoo Atlanta, we'll see zoos and aquariums in Tennessee, South Carolina, and a bit of North Carolina on a 5-day trip.
 
Hey Allen, Did you get to see the snow leopards playing in the snow at the OKCity Zoo's Cat Forest?
 
BlackRhino said:
Hey Allen, Did you get to see the snow leopards playing in the snow at the OKCity Zoo's Cat Forest?
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Nope! SnowLeopard loves exhibits that have many places for the animals to hide, well this factor burned me this time! I saw NO snow leopards, even though I expected to, as they were all hiding.
 
LOL.I've had the same dilemma.For months it appeared as if Toronto Zoo had no snow leopards but finally one day it finally appeared
 
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