Didn't we just discuss a bison walk-through enclosure in Europe, though?
Snowleopard's Mammals: A Lifetime List of Species Mammalian and Non-Mammalian
- Thread starter snowleopard
- Start date
Yes, with a "keep 50 meters of distance" sign that is respected by most visitors
And because of this, every year there are at least a few news stories like these:
https://www.cnn.com/2023/07/17/us/bison-attack-yellowstone-park/index.html
Video shows man attacked by bison at Yellowstone National Park (2022) | CNN
Three people gored by bison in a month at Yellowstone National Park. Why do these attacks happen?
71-year-old woman gored by bison at Yellowstone, marking 3rd attack this year
Yellowstone visitor, 25, is gored by bison and tossed 10 feet in the air
2 Women Attacked by Bison While Visiting National Parks
Yellowstone tourist suffers consequences after getting too close to bison: ‘Got what he was asking for’
Fair enough, a sign like that would never be respected in the US (and not only because we have no idea how much 50 meters is).
And yet when they travel. Europeans (or at least Germans) don't follow the wildlife rules. Here in Australia all the crocodile warning signs are in German as well as English, because Germans are the nationality most likely to flaunt the rules and get attacked by crocodiles. In Sri Lanka, our guide told us Germans were most likely to flaunt the rules and feed then get attacked by elephants. Sure enough we passed a minivan of Germans, parked on the road, doors wide open and hand-feeding a wild elephant. Then visiting Africa, where of course hippos are the most dangerous big species in terms of number of fatalities, and guess what? Germans flaunt the rules and get attacked at a much higher rate than other nationalities. Go figure.
By contrast, I find Americans when travelling overseas are generally scared stiff of everything that moves and are very reluctant to step out of line.
I was told by an employee at a nature center near me that a group of German students had done some volunteer work there several years before. They were working on removing buckthorn, an awful invasive shrub here. It was the time of year that buckthorn has ripe berries, and the students were specifically told they were not allowed to eat the berries. Despite this, they caught most of the students sneaking berries. Those students must have regretted it, as their flight back to Europe left the next day, and consuming buckthorn berries gives you explosive diarrhea.
Last edited:
Given that Germans are also among the most far-travelling tourists (next to Czech, who you might run into in even the most remote places), I'm not surprised that you see them everywhere doing acts of stupidity.
Never saw those German signs when I was in Oz; must be rather new. Or they are invisible to anyone who understands.
But yeah, there are some truly dumb German specimens around, and I remember my parents doing stupid things around local wildlife when travelling abroad, despite being generally rational and cautious people.And yet, they still have more walkthrough exhibits in German zoos than in the US.
Speaking of wreckless behaviour around animals: the way I have seen Australians interact with their local wildlife (and their zoo animals) isn't always that smart and cautious either...
Tigers - Austrailia zoo 05 - ZooChat
The only kid at WdG so far who threw a fit because she wasn't allowed to pet the gaboon viper was an American. Yet sometimes, such ignorance regarding potential danger might even prevent accidents:
However, there are also plenty of videos online of Americans (especially in Florida) not being scared stiff at all, but rather playing stupid games with their local fauna & flora, and, as a result, winning stupid prices while doing so. And none of them is speaking ze German, @MRJ
Last edited:
What strikes me about this story: what is a whole group of German students doing in Wisconsin, given that the state (no offence) isn't the most popular among German visitors. One German I might understand, but a whole group of them? Maybe part of a student exchange program? And given the general American knowledge regarding global geography, they might not have been Germans at all...I was told by an employee at a nature center near me that a group of German students had done some volunteer work there several years before. They were working on removing buckthorn, an awful invasive shrub here. It was the time of year that buckthorn has ripe berries, and the students were specifically told they were not allowed to eat the berries. Despite this, they caught most of the students sneaking berries. Those students must have regretted it, as their flight back to Europe left the next day, and consuming buckthorn berries gives you explosive diarrhea.
Last edited:
Yeah, you would probably use anything but the metric system. Like "Please keep 25 LeBron Jameses away from that buffalo"
What strikes me is that personal anecdotes may not, in fact, be representative of any group at all, and that people from within groups are actually quite alike to those from others, with plenty of variation among members within said groups.
Trends may occur one way or another regarding legislation or culture, but even still, human behavior, for the most part, is fairly uniform across groups. Some (Insert ethnicity/nationality) act foolishly in regard to wildlife, plenty more don't. In all honesty I don't find these confirmation bias feedback loops useful ways of describing each other. There are idiots who push the limits (as are those who are geographically ignorant) everywhere, why don't we leave it at that?
Last edited:
A decade or more.
By contrast to their actions in the wild, my experience of Germans at Moonlit is that they are so good we hardly notice them. In fact, I was amazed how many German visitors came out of the woodwork when one day I was showing Boris Becker around.
Too true, but that particular example at least no longer exists.Speaking of wreckless behaviour around animals: the way I have seen Australians interact with their local wildlife (and their zoo animals) isn't always that smart and cautious either...
Attachments
I believe he has been in a little bit of trouble recently; I am trying to remember if he had a hat on. Anyway he was there for Australian Open doing something for media. He visited us to add a little local colour to his show.Given his fair skin, I'm even more amazed that the Australian sun didn't burn him to a crisp. And that he has still money left to travel to Australia.
Is there a species of mammal that has been treated more poorly by humans than Rhesus Macaques? I remember reading a couple of books, many years ago, about Rhesus 'Monkeys' in laboratories and the abuse that they often suffered was horrendous. Social deprivation, pain tests, removal of babies to see the effect on mothers, the deliberate breaking of monkey leg bones to help human paraplegics, etc. If one went back 50 years, then I can hardly comprehend the hundreds of thousands of lab monkeys that had to suffer in order for humans to find cures or ways to improve their own lives.
One would think that this particular type of macaque would be commonplace in zoos around the world, especially with the notion that an ex-lab monkey would be rescued here and there. That happens to not be the case as in all my zoo touring I've only ever seen the species at 9 zoos. Not only that, but all 9 facilities are so obscure that I doubt anyone on this site has been to more than two of them. This list includes a small Canadian zoo in the late 1990s, some non-accredited roadside dumpsters in America, a primate rescue center called Stichting, and then a trio of privately-owned zoos to round off the list. Rhesus Macaques are basically unheard of at AZA or EAZA zoos, but I'd like to know if some accredited institutions have them. Glancing through the ZooChat gallery, Rhesus Macaques seem to pop up at quite a few relatively unknown little zoos.
1- Greater Vancouver Zoo (Canada) – Rhesus Macaque – 1998
2- Wild Wilderness Drive-Through Safari (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2015
3- Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2015
4- Indian Creek Zoo (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2018
5- Special Memories Zoo (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2018
6- Stichting AAP (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
7- Van Blanckendaell Park (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
8- Harry Malter Familiepark (Belgium) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
9- BestZOO (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
At the atrocious Wild Wilderness Drive-Through Safari (USA) in rural Arkansas, there was a 'Western Brown Baboon' (aka Olive Baboon), a Rhesus Macaque and an American Black Bear together in this exhibit. All three species were hanging out in the same space.
Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge (USA) had an exhibit for Rhesus Macaques in 2015:
Then there's Indian Creek Zoo (USA) and this photo shows the entire exhibit for a single monkey. Horrific.
Special Memories Zoo (USA) had a couple of Rhesus Macaques in this tiny cage:
Stepping things up a notch in terms of quality, Van Blanckendaell Park (Netherlands) had this exhibit in 2019:
The tiny, kid-friendly Harry Malter Familiepark (Belgium) has this cage:
And the indoor holding is bleak with only two shelves and zero climbing opportunities:
At BestZOO (Netherlands), the Rhesus Macaques are able to pass overhead in wire tunnels.
@vogelcommando
But the indoor accommodation is stark and barren:
@KevinB
These are intelligent primates, zoo designers! Someone needs to build a half-decent Rhesus Macaque exhibit for a bunch of tortured ex-lab monkeys.
@KevinB
Mammal Lists:
Gibbons - 143 zoos (64 White-handed, 62 Siamang, 36 White-cheeked, 12 Yellow-cheeked, 7 Southern Grey, 5 Pileated, 3 Silvery, 2 Agile, 1 Eastern Hoolock, with some zoos having multiple species)
Elephants - 105 zoos (62 Asian, 53 African, including some zoos with both)
Gorillas - 74
Orangutans - 74
Chimpanzees - 64
Baboons - 41 zoos (31 Hamadryas, 11 Olive, 6 Guinea, 1 Yellow, with some zoos having multiple species)
Mandrills - 41
Lion-tailed Macaques - 25
Japanese Macaques - 23
Barbary Macaques - 16
Bonobos - 14
Sulawesi Crested Macaques - 13
Pig-tailed Macaques - 10
Rhesus Macaques - 9
Drills - 8
Geladas - 6
One would think that this particular type of macaque would be commonplace in zoos around the world, especially with the notion that an ex-lab monkey would be rescued here and there. That happens to not be the case as in all my zoo touring I've only ever seen the species at 9 zoos. Not only that, but all 9 facilities are so obscure that I doubt anyone on this site has been to more than two of them. This list includes a small Canadian zoo in the late 1990s, some non-accredited roadside dumpsters in America, a primate rescue center called Stichting, and then a trio of privately-owned zoos to round off the list. Rhesus Macaques are basically unheard of at AZA or EAZA zoos, but I'd like to know if some accredited institutions have them. Glancing through the ZooChat gallery, Rhesus Macaques seem to pop up at quite a few relatively unknown little zoos.
1- Greater Vancouver Zoo (Canada) – Rhesus Macaque – 1998
2- Wild Wilderness Drive-Through Safari (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2015
3- Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2015
4- Indian Creek Zoo (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2018
5- Special Memories Zoo (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2018
6- Stichting AAP (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
7- Van Blanckendaell Park (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
8- Harry Malter Familiepark (Belgium) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
9- BestZOO (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
At the atrocious Wild Wilderness Drive-Through Safari (USA) in rural Arkansas, there was a 'Western Brown Baboon' (aka Olive Baboon), a Rhesus Macaque and an American Black Bear together in this exhibit. All three species were hanging out in the same space.
Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge (USA) had an exhibit for Rhesus Macaques in 2015:
Then there's Indian Creek Zoo (USA) and this photo shows the entire exhibit for a single monkey. Horrific.
Special Memories Zoo (USA) had a couple of Rhesus Macaques in this tiny cage:
Stepping things up a notch in terms of quality, Van Blanckendaell Park (Netherlands) had this exhibit in 2019:
The tiny, kid-friendly Harry Malter Familiepark (Belgium) has this cage:
And the indoor holding is bleak with only two shelves and zero climbing opportunities:
At BestZOO (Netherlands), the Rhesus Macaques are able to pass overhead in wire tunnels.
@vogelcommando
But the indoor accommodation is stark and barren:
@KevinB
These are intelligent primates, zoo designers! Someone needs to build a half-decent Rhesus Macaque exhibit for a bunch of tortured ex-lab monkeys.
@KevinB
Mammal Lists:
Gibbons - 143 zoos (64 White-handed, 62 Siamang, 36 White-cheeked, 12 Yellow-cheeked, 7 Southern Grey, 5 Pileated, 3 Silvery, 2 Agile, 1 Eastern Hoolock, with some zoos having multiple species)
Elephants - 105 zoos (62 Asian, 53 African, including some zoos with both)
Gorillas - 74
Orangutans - 74
Chimpanzees - 64
Baboons - 41 zoos (31 Hamadryas, 11 Olive, 6 Guinea, 1 Yellow, with some zoos having multiple species)
Mandrills - 41
Lion-tailed Macaques - 25
Japanese Macaques - 23
Barbary Macaques - 16
Bonobos - 14
Sulawesi Crested Macaques - 13
Pig-tailed Macaques - 10
Rhesus Macaques - 9
Drills - 8
Geladas - 6
Lafone
Well-Known Member
Is there a species of mammal that has been treated more poorly by humans than Rhesus Macaques? I remember reading a couple of books, many years ago, about Rhesus 'Monkeys' in laboratories and the abuse that they often suffered was horrendous. Social deprivation, pain tests, removal of babies to see the effect on mothers, the deliberate breaking of monkey leg bones to help human paraplegics, etc. If one went back 50 years, then I can hardly comprehend the hundreds of thousands of lab monkeys that had to suffer in order for humans to find cures or ways to improve their own lives.
One would think that this particular type of macaque would be commonplace in zoos around the world, especially with the notion that an ex-lab monkey would be rescued here and there. That happens to not be the case as in all my zoo touring I've only ever seen the species at 9 zoos. Not only that, but all 9 facilities are so obscure that I doubt anyone on this site has been to more than two of them. This list includes a small Canadian zoo in the late 1990s, some non-accredited roadside dumpsters in America, a primate rescue center called Stichting, and then a trio of privately-owned zoos to round off the list. Rhesus Macaques are basically unheard of at AZA or EAZA zoos, but I'd like to know if some accredited institutions have them. Glancing through the ZooChat gallery, Rhesus Macaques seem to pop up at quite a few relatively unknown little zoos.
1- Greater Vancouver Zoo (Canada) – Rhesus Macaque – 1998
2- Wild Wilderness Drive-Through Safari (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2015
3- Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2015
4- Indian Creek Zoo (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2018
5- Special Memories Zoo (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2018
6- Stichting AAP (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
7- Van Blanckendaell Park (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
8- Harry Malter Familiepark (Belgium) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
9- BestZOO (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
At the atrocious Wild Wilderness Drive-Through Safari (USA) in rural Arkansas, there was a 'Western Brown Baboon' (aka Olive Baboon), a Rhesus Macaque and an American Black Bear together in this exhibit. All three species were hanging out in the same space.
Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge (USA) had an exhibit for Rhesus Macaques in 2015:
Then there's Indian Creek Zoo (USA) and this photo shows the entire exhibit for a single monkey. Horrific.
Special Memories Zoo (USA) had a couple of Rhesus Macaques in this tiny cage:
Stepping things up a notch in terms of quality, Van Blanckendaell Park (Netherlands) had this exhibit in 2019:
The tiny, kid-friendly Harry Malter Familiepark (Belgium) has this cage:
And the indoor holding is bleak with only two shelves and zero climbing opportunities:
At BestZOO (Netherlands), the Rhesus Macaques are able to pass overhead in wire tunnels.
@vogelcommando
But the indoor accommodation is stark and barren:
@KevinB
These are intelligent primates, zoo designers! Someone needs to build a half-decent Rhesus Macaque exhibit for a bunch of tortured ex-lab monkeys.
@KevinB
Mammal Lists:
Gibbons - 143 zoos (64 White-handed, 62 Siamang, 36 White-cheeked, 12 Yellow-cheeked, 7 Southern Grey, 5 Pileated, 3 Silvery, 2 Agile, 1 Eastern Hoolock, with some zoos having multiple species)
Elephants - 105 zoos (62 Asian, 53 African, including some zoos with both)
Gorillas - 74
Orangutans - 74
Chimpanzees - 64
Baboons - 41 zoos (31 Hamadryas, 11 Olive, 6 Guinea, 1 Yellow, with some zoos having multiple species)
Mandrills - 41
Lion-tailed Macaques - 25
Japanese Macaques - 23
Barbary Macaques - 16
Bonobos - 14
Sulawesi Crested Macaques - 13
Pig-tailed Macaques - 10
Rhesus Macaques - 9
Drills - 8
Geladas - 6
Such a good post - they are amazing animals.
Saw them most recently at Drayton Manor theme park zoo (BIAZA) last weekend where they had good furniture and climbing opportunities which was nice to see. The other place I’ve seen them is at Ark wildlife / dinosaur park where they have both Barbary and Rhesus that are all ex lab monkeys (the history’s of them on display are not good reading but people should know what people have done to these animals whatever their view on the necessity) where they have a couple of older spaces and then two new ones which are pretty good with lots to do but not vast.
I guess here in U.K. the standout would be Longleat where Rhesus Macaques live in the sort of enclosure they deserve in a large drive through space. There’s a bypass area for anyone who doesn’t want to risk their car! They breed well there. I guess many places don’t have them as they are ‘least concern’ but there needs to be a home for ex lab monkeys and there are so many fantastic things to see with rhesus macaques that I hope we do continue to see them around.
The rare reference in the link is to the birth of twins not the rhesus themselves btw.
https://www.longleat.co.uk/safari/monkey-mayhem
https://www.longleat.co.uk/news/rare-monkey-twins-born-at-longleat
Domestic rabbits, house/labratory mice, rats, guinea pigs, productive livestock, war horses, pit ponies, Steller's sea cow...the list is long.
Unfortunately, a lot of the research done on rats was way worse for them than a lot of the research done on primates- and done on a much greater quantity of animals. Even today, the genera Rattus and Mus are exempt from the Animal Welfare Act when used in research. While I won't defend some of the historical practices done on animals, today there are IACUC review boards and other ethical principles to thankfully reduce the number of animals harmed in research, and improvements have been made to the conditions these animals live in.
Chimpanzees were also frequently used in research, and despite being a relatively common zoo animal, it is a relatively small number of former research chimps that end up in reputable zoos (although some do). Instead, the majority of former research chimps end up in sanctuary-type places that are not open to the public. I'd imagine the same is true with rhesus macaques. If we consider what is best for the individual animals, I'd imagine this is often the better choice for former research animals who would've had a very different developmental history than individuals housed in zoos their entire lives.
In Turkey Rhesus macaques are the second most frequent primate kept (and exploited) following the grivet. The irony of most of the holders I have seen is that some of the animals are said to be rescued from illegal owners, only to be kept in a cage no better or even be used as a photo prop, making the claim likely to be balderdash.Is there a species of mammal that has been treated more poorly by humans than Rhesus Macaques? I remember reading a couple of books, many years ago, about Rhesus 'Monkeys' in laboratories and the abuse that they often suffered was horrendous. Social deprivation, pain tests, removal of babies to see the effect on mothers, the deliberate breaking of monkey leg bones to help human paraplegics, etc. If one went back 50 years, then I can hardly comprehend the hundreds of thousands of lab monkeys that had to suffer in order for humans to find cures or ways to improve their own lives.
One would think that this particular type of macaque would be commonplace in zoos around the world, especially with the notion that an ex-lab monkey would be rescued here and there. That happens to not be the case as in all my zoo touring I've only ever seen the species at 9 zoos. Not only that, but all 9 facilities are so obscure that I doubt anyone on this site has been to more than two of them. This list includes a small Canadian zoo in the late 1990s, some non-accredited roadside dumpsters in America, a primate rescue center called Stichting, and then a trio of privately-owned zoos to round off the list. Rhesus Macaques are basically unheard of at AZA or EAZA zoos, but I'd like to know if some accredited institutions have them. Glancing through the ZooChat gallery, Rhesus Macaques seem to pop up at quite a few relatively unknown little zoos.
1- Greater Vancouver Zoo (Canada) – Rhesus Macaque – 1998
2- Wild Wilderness Drive-Through Safari (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2015
3- Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2015
4- Indian Creek Zoo (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2018
5- Special Memories Zoo (USA) – Rhesus Macaque – 2018
6- Stichting AAP (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
7- Van Blanckendaell Park (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
8- Harry Malter Familiepark (Belgium) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
9- BestZOO (Netherlands) – Rhesus Macaque – 2019
At the atrocious Wild Wilderness Drive-Through Safari (USA) in rural Arkansas, there was a 'Western Brown Baboon' (aka Olive Baboon), a Rhesus Macaque and an American Black Bear together in this exhibit. All three species were hanging out in the same space.
Turpentine Creek Wildlife Refuge (USA) had an exhibit for Rhesus Macaques in 2015:
Then there's Indian Creek Zoo (USA) and this photo shows the entire exhibit for a single monkey. Horrific.
Special Memories Zoo (USA) had a couple of Rhesus Macaques in this tiny cage:
Stepping things up a notch in terms of quality, Van Blanckendaell Park (Netherlands) had this exhibit in 2019:
The tiny, kid-friendly Harry Malter Familiepark (Belgium) has this cage:
And the indoor holding is bleak with only two shelves and zero climbing opportunities:
At BestZOO (Netherlands), the Rhesus Macaques are able to pass overhead in wire tunnels.
@vogelcommando
But the indoor accommodation is stark and barren:
@KevinB
These are intelligent primates, zoo designers! Someone needs to build a half-decent Rhesus Macaque exhibit for a bunch of tortured ex-lab monkeys.
@KevinB
Mammal Lists:
Gibbons - 143 zoos (64 White-handed, 62 Siamang, 36 White-cheeked, 12 Yellow-cheeked, 7 Southern Grey, 5 Pileated, 3 Silvery, 2 Agile, 1 Eastern Hoolock, with some zoos having multiple species)
Elephants - 105 zoos (62 Asian, 53 African, including some zoos with both)
Gorillas - 74
Orangutans - 74
Chimpanzees - 64
Baboons - 41 zoos (31 Hamadryas, 11 Olive, 6 Guinea, 1 Yellow, with some zoos having multiple species)
Mandrills - 41
Lion-tailed Macaques - 25
Japanese Macaques - 23
Barbary Macaques - 16
Bonobos - 14
Sulawesi Crested Macaques - 13
Pig-tailed Macaques - 10
Rhesus Macaques - 9
Drills - 8
Geladas - 6
I do want to ask about the better enclosures: did any of them have any large body of water be it a tub, a pond, or a pool? From what I know, rhesus macaques love to swim when given the chance. When I went to the Polonezköy zoo the rhesus macaque were diving in the little tub they were able to fit in which was definitely something interesting to see in the sad enclosure they were subjected to. I also remember seeing footage of rhesus macaques swimming in pools in temples.