South Lakes Wild Animal Park South lakes news

[Pertinax]

Where did the male 'Dayo' come from originally?

 

[lechweoryx]

Don't know where Dayo came from.

http://www.zoodoue.fr/animal.php?lang=en
(click on the West African giraffe link on the right hand side of the page)


This is where they will come from. Most of those giraffes don't look like Peralta's, especially the bull!

 

[zoogiraffe]

Don't know where Dayo came from.

http://www.zoodoue.fr/animal.php?lang=en
(click on the West African giraffe link on the right hand side of the page)


This is where they will come from. Most of those giraffes don't look like Peralta's, especially the bull!

The fact that they look nothing like a peralta may have something to do with the fact that the website lists them as Giraffa camelopardalis antiquorum!!!

 

[lechweoryx]

So in other words South Lakes are not telling the truth about the Giraffes they are recieving or are completely unaware about what subspecies they are.

 

[Maguari]

So in other words South Lakes are not telling the truth about the Giraffes they are recieving or are completely unaware about what subspecies they are.

Not 'not telling the truth' as such, just not using the most up-to-date information. The animals were considered to be peralta for many years, now they are considered to be antiquorum.

 

[Javan Rhino]

Not 'not telling the truth' as such, just not using the most up-to-date information. The animals were considered to be peralta for many years, now they are considered to be antiquorum.

What I don't understand is why they use the common name of one subspecies and the scientific name of another. If the zoo in France have changed one after the updated information, why have they not changed the common name with it?

Also, are South Lakes aware that these are antiquorum, surely they will have seen the scientific name and realised that they are in fact Kordofan [sp?]

 

[Pertinax]

Not 'not telling the truth' as such, just not using the most up-to-date information. The animals were considered to be peralta for many years, now they are considered to be antiquorum.

I suspect they choose not to differentiate, in order to avoid even more complications in setting up this group.

Were the ones at Doue la Fontaine acquired from the Paris Vincennes Zoo after it closed for alterations, or have they(Doue) had their own group separately for longer than that I wonder?

 

[Maguari]

What I don't understand is why they use the common name of one subspecies and the scientific name of another. If the zoo in France have changed one after the updated information, why have they not changed the common name with it?

They're human and make mistakes? Possibly they just don't see a need to change it - it's on the English section of the website, not the French (where it's called Girafe d'Afrique Centrale), and apart from that the majority of visitors will never notice the difference, much less care about it.

Also, are South Lakes aware that these are antiquorum, surely they will have seen the scientific name and realised that they are in fact Kordofan [sp?]

That I can't answer. But these animals have been treated as peralta for some time and it's quite possible that they have looked at the evidence and simply decided they don't believe they are antiquorum. Scientific papers' findings are interpretations of evidence, not stone-cold fact, after all.



It's nothing to worry about - a change has been made and it takes a while for everything to catch up, is all.

 

[Javan Rhino]

They're human and make mistakes? Possibly they just don't see a need to change it - it's on the English section of the website, not the French (where it's called Girafe d'Afrique Centrale), and apart from that the majority of visitors will never notice the difference, much less care about it.




That I can't answer. But these animals have been treated as peralta for some time and it's quite possible that they have looked at the evidence and simply decided they don't believe they are antiquorum. Scientific papers' findings are interpretations of evidence, not stone-cold fact, after all.



It's nothing to worry about - a change has been made and it takes a while for everything to catch up, is all.

Point taken, it just confused me a little. So long as they are either all 'peralta' or all 'antiquorum' then there is no problem anyway, I just don't want there to be a peralta bull and antiquorum cows, and to breed another generation of sub-specific hybrids with how much work has been put into phasing these out and working towards the pure-bred herds.

p.s. - one good thing, this thread has really helped me learn two more scientific names with how much I've typed them tonight .

 

[Maguari]

Point taken, it just confused me a little. So long as they are either all 'peralta' or all 'antiquorum' then there is no problem anyway, I just don't want there to be a peralta bull and antiquorum cows, and to breed another generation of sub-specific hybrids with how much work has been put into phasing these out and working towards the pure-bred herds.

Don't worry - it'll all be going through the European giraffe studboook keeper, and I understand he's reasonably competent.

p.s. - one good thing, this thread has really helped me learn two more scientific names with how much I've typed them tonight .

Every cloud...!

 

[Pt123]

Don't worry - it'll all be going through the European giraffe studboook keeper, and I understand he's reasonably competent.

He certainly is, but South Lakes do not help matters by going against all of the studbook reccomendations with this move

 

[Javan Rhino]

Don't worry - it'll all be going through the European giraffe studboook keeper, and I understand he's reasonably competent.

Yup, he has done a fantastic job in getting pure herds together and I have no reason to believe he isn't competent

 

[Maguari]

He certainly is, but South Lakes do not help matters by going against all of the studbook reccomendations with this move

With regards to specific animals or just with regards to going for antiquorum rather than rothschildi/reticulata?

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

Following on from this, the zoo's Facebook page also has these two quotes from David Gill:

"Walda is due to go to Fota in Ireland in February, Beau to Knowsley in April and I am awaiting the final decisions of the European Breeding Programme for Tibor, I would love him to stay , I have had him for nearly 10 years and he is part of my family ! David"

Walda is a pure-bred Rothschildt's from Praha Zoo. His move to Fota would be a nice coup as it is bringing new genes into the herd.

Beau - this name beats me - cannot phantom which male this refers to.

Tibor is a cross-breed.


For what it is worth: All giraffe in Europe are antiquorum and not peralta (confirmed by genetic research, the 2007 paper here referred to was a preliminary on this). This notion was also adopted by the species committee.

The Nigerien peralta giraffe project was there from the start. Given that quite a few French zoos and some others (incl. David Gill's South Lakes) have invested heavily in protecting this rarest of giraffe ssp. proves the WAZA philosophy in practice works. The very fact this project has been able to assist in recovery from a very low level population to over 200-250 is a veritable achievement in itself (and against all commoners' odds). The fact that since then the giraffe at all participating zoos have been demonstrated to be the antiquorum ssp. is irrelevant here.

 

[Javan Rhino]

Quote from David Gill on the South Lakes facebook page:

I would stop worrying about it..... its all in a name. the Isis record for Dayo is Peralta...... the peralta/antiquorum group of giraffes was grouped a long while ago because of limited numbers in Europe and no clarity to exact defined ori...gins. In Doue they are refered to as Peralta, but I will let you know that there is no such thing as a sub species in Giraffe...they are all one species ..with different markings for geographic areas. Every named type of Giraffe has a cross over point of "hybridisation" . the breeding programme is doing its best to keep the groups seperate and we will have the only group of West African Giraffes in the UK. We will continue to call them Peralta as the whole idea of getting them is to highlight the vital conservation project we fund in Niger with the ASGN...a far more important and critical issue than a subjective latin name or indeed anything else to do with captive management which is really not important in real terms compared to Wild conservation of any species. hope this helps David

I don't care which they are, still the only ones in Britain

 

[mhale]

Beau - this name beats me - cannot phantom which male this refers to.

On his info board at South Lakes, his name is actually spelt Bo. I have attached a photo of said board. Am I right in thinking he was born in Belfast?

 

[Chlidonias]

(from post #135)

In Doue they are refered to as Peralta, but I will let you know that there is no such thing as a sub species in Giraffe...they are all one species ..with different markings for geographic areas.

well, good to know David Gill's opinion of the importance of the conservation programme he is supporting

 

[Nisha]

Your right, Mhale. Bo or Beau was born in 2006 at Belfast and is a half brother to Sillian who's now at Folly Farm. They arrived together in June 2008

 

[Maguari]

I would stop worrying about it..... its all in a name. the Isis record for Dayo is Peralta...... the peralta/antiquorum group of giraffes was grouped a long while ago because of limited numbers in Europe and no clarity to exact defined ori...gins. In Doue they are refered to as Peralta, but I will let you know that there is no such thing as a sub species in Giraffe...they are all one species ..with different markings for geographic areas. Every named type of Giraffe has a cross over point of "hybridisation" . the breeding programme is doing its best to keep the groups seperate and we will have the only group of West African Giraffes in the UK. We will continue to call them Peralta as the whole idea of getting them is to highlight the vital conservation project we fund in Niger with the ASGN...a far more important and critical issue than a subjective latin name or indeed anything else to do with captive management which is really not important in real terms compared to Wild conservation of any species. hope this helps David

See, most of this is arguably true - and it's certainly the case that the peralta/antiquorum boundary is one of the more hazy ones. Most of the rest I don't presonally agree with, but it's a position that could be argued.

I don't get the bolded bit at all though - if they were supporting Asian Lion conservation would they label their African Lions as Asian becuase it would highlight their field efforts more??

 

[Kifaru Bwana]

@Maguari

Ad 1) Admittedly, the exact boundary between peralta and antiquorum is not well understood due in part a paucity of giraffe research in Central Africa. However, the validity of both ssp. is without question. However, the current debate that some should be raised to individual species level is far from complete (e.g. reticulata).

Ad 2) It is a rather curious notion on the part of D.G. It would be perfectly sensible to label the giraffe at the zoo to antiquorum - which they are - and discuss on the displays and labels at the giraffe section the project South Lakes is involved with. For what it is worth: all the French zoos involved in supporting the project have no peraltas, but antiquorums.

The antiquorum assignage for all peralta giraffe in the EEP has been adopted by the species committee well some time ago.


@mhale
The date of birth and a Belfast individual giraffe correspond. Officially, he is known by the name Ballybogey. Incidentally, when did this guy come up to South Lakes exactly?

Also, I seem to remember another giraffe - a reticulata - by the name of Twingo at South Lakes too ...?

Cheers to you all,

K.B.