Species formerly kept in Brazil

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

No, we're talking about new conservation programes which took and are taking place in the country with both native and exotic species. Along with partnerships with other instituions around the world, we can bring a better future for both Brazilian zoos and native species. While I believe privatizations could help in other areas, instead of privatizing all zoos at once, we should wait to see what happens with the zoos that have already been given to the private sector. Therefore, we need to wait to see the results in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo.

So you are not anticipating a golden age as much as hoping for one to emerge as a byproduct of privatisation ?

Then that is just a castle in the sky then isn't it?

Privatisation means an institution becoming profit driven and commercial in character and while it may bring in the money this doesn't mean it will reach conservation efforts which often are costly to run and after a cost benefit analysis can either be scrapped or just gutted of most of their funding and left as a meaningless token that is inefectual.

Do you know of any privatised zoos here with decent ex-situ programmes for native species ? The SP aquarium perhaps with their mermaids ?

I know people at SP Zoo and others in the country who have given decades of their lives to conservation programs for native species and this is the moment they have been dreading.

 

[Enzo]

So you are not anticipating a golden age as much as hoping for one to emerge as a byproduct of privatisation ?

Then that is just a castle in the sky then isn't it?

Privatisation means an institution becoming profit driven and commercial in character and while it may bring in the money this doesn't mean it will reach conservation efforts which often are costly to run and after a cost benefit analysis can either be scrapped or just gutted of most of their funding and left as a meaningless token that is inefectual.

Do you know of any privatised zoos here with decent ex-situ programmes for native species ? The SP aquarium perhaps with their mermaids ?

I know people at SP Zoo and others in the country who have given decades of their lives to conservation programs for native species and this is the moment they have been dreading.

No, I just think Brazilian zoos have started to focus more on conservation than simply exposing animals. I hope things go well at both public and privately-owned zoos, including the newly privatized ones. The golden age is a result of mainly the development of conservation programes for animals like the black and golden lion tamarins, western gorillas and Rothschild's giraffes and partnerships with zoos from other countries. I believe the recently privatized institutions will continue with their conservation programes for various native species because they'd cause a significant loss (environmental, finantial and reputational) if ended.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

No, I just think Brazilian zoos have started to focus more on conservation than simply exposing animals. I hope things go well at both public and privately-owned zoos, including the newly privatized ones. The golden age is a result of mainly the development of conservation programes for animals like the black and golden lion tamarins, western gorillas and Rothschild's giraffes and partnerships with zoos from other countries. I believe the recently privatized institutions will continue with their conservation programes for various native species because they'd cause a significant loss (environmental, finantial and reputational) if ended.

Then you have considerably more faith in privatised profit driven institutions then me and my colleagues who work in Zoos.

What example would you give me of this new "greater focus on conservation" that has come out of privatisation then ?

I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the programmes for the black and golden lion tamarin were set up a long time ago by SP Zoo and others and long before this move towards privatisation so if you are going to cite that as "proof " then you are totally wrong.

Let me be brutally honest with you the programmes for gorillas and giraffes are beyond insignificant on a global scale unlike those for native threatened species which are of international importance / significance.

What partnerships with Zoos internationally that have come post privatisation are you referring to ?

I know two zoo directors and several coordinators of captive breeding programmes here in Brazil and they all had very good international contacts and partnerships with zoos in Europe and North and Latin America prior to privatisation.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Anyway it doesn't matter as privatisation will in all likelihood happen given the love of neoliberal economics over everything else favoured by the current administration of the country(and probably future administration of Doria).

Let's hope for the sake of endangered Brazilian fauna that this move doesn't threaten the ex-situ programmes or the careers of my colleagues who work night and day to keep these running in zoos.

 

[Enzo]

Then you have considerably more faith in privatised profit driven institutions then me and my colleagues who work in Zoos.

What example would you give me of this new "greater focus on conservation" that has come out of privatisation then ?

I'm sure I don't need to tell you that the programmes for the black and golden lion tamarin were set up a long time ago by SP Zoo and others and long before this move towards privatisation so if you are going to cite that as "proof " then you are totally wrong.

Let me be brutally honest with you the programmes for gorillas and giraffes are beyond insignificant on a global scale unlike those for native threatened species which are of international importance / significance.

What partnerships with Zoos internationally that have come post privatisation are you referring to ?

I know two zoo directors and several coordinators of captive breeding programmes here in Brazil and they all had very good international contacts and partnerships with zoos in Europe and North and Latin America prior to privatisation.

Oh, no. What I meant is that Brazilian zoos, no matter if they're public or privately-owned have gained international recognition recently with their conservation programs, like the ones made for the already mentioned lion tamarins, or the ones created for southern muriquis. I wish the best for everyone working at Brazilian zoos and there are various examples of excellent public institutions in the country. When I mentioned partnerships, I wasn't talking about the ones made after privatizations, but friendly relations between zoos in our nation and institutions outside Brazil.

 

[Enzo]

Anyway it doesn't matter as privatisation will in all likelihood happen given the love of neoliberal economics over everything else favoured by the current administration of the country(and probably future administration of Doria).

Let's hope for the sake of endangered Brazilian fauna that this move doesn't threaten the ex-situ programmes or the careers of my colleagues who work night and day to keep these running in zoos.

Yes, let's do that. I hope they don't shut down these programs, otherwise it'd be a huge loss.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Oh, no. What I meant is that Brazilian zoos, no matter if they're public or privately-owned have gained international recognition recently with their conservation programs, like the ones made for the already mentioned lion tamarins, or the ones created for southern muriquis. I wish the best for everyone working at Brazilian zoos and there are various examples of excellent public institutions in the country. When I mentioned partnerships, I wasn't talking about the ones made after privatizations, but friendly relations between zoos in our nation and institutions outside Brazil.

In terms of international relations with Zoos globally I would be more concerned about the loss of partnerships and friendships.

If privatisation leads to staff turnovers and some of the long term staff losing their jobs a lot will be lost in this regard.

Many of these have formed long-term working relationships with zoos and their staff around the world for the sake of ex-situ conservation and some were even trained by foreign Zoos.

If these staff members lose their jobs it will likely affect these partnerships and collaborations negatively.

 

[Enzo]

In terms of international relations with Zoos globally I would be more concerned about the loss of partnerships and friendships.

If privatisation leads to staff turnovers and some of the long term staff losing their jobs a lot will be lost in this regard.

Many of these have formed long-term working relationships with zoos and their staff around the world for the sake of ex-situ conservation and some were even trained by foreign Zoos.

If these staff members lose their jobs it will likely affect these partnerships and collaborations negatively.

I hope they keep their jobs and that their work can be remembered by future generations of zookeepers and visitors.

 

[Enzo]

Now, continuing with rodents, we have porcupines. I'm going to start with the Cape crested ones. Those have only been kept at the Beto Carrero World zoo, as far as I know. Those could still be there and I remember seeing them in 2015, back on my first and only visit to the theme park.

According to the Sorocaba's zoo website, they also had Cape crested porcupines.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

I've stayed a few days out of this platform and lost the opportunity to get into you guy's conversation, but what me and @Enzo were saying (correct me if you actually meant something different, @Enzo ) is that our zoos, independent of being private or public, seem to be actually evolving (slowly in some cases, unfortunately, but still are) and this brings us hope. I don't know exactly about the possible bad changes that might come with the privatisations, but I once asked Rio's crew if they kept any of the employees of the old zoo, and they said they did, in most cases. This brought me hope that the companies that assume the direction of São Paulo, for example (and other zoos in the future) have the decency of keeping the previous workers that were important for the institution. There are clear differences from the privatisations happening here and the ones that took place in Argentina decades ago, for example, and made the zoos close there.
About the arrival of exotic species to Rio, and what @Onychorhynchus coronatus said about zoo games and etc, I think most of us here have the clear knowledge that zoos are no longer places for simple exhibition, and hope the foreign species that arrive to the institutions have a nice breeding program, or at least have the intention to involve them into one of those. If we were moved by a wish of seeing more and more different animals, we would have been wishing that our zoos brought okapis, orangutans, pandas, and many other that were never kept around here, instead of wroting for the conservation programs we have, or even for the creation of new ones, as we are.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

Completing my previous answer, it's possible to see some private institutions in the country that are actually worried with conservation, such as Parque das Aves in Foz do Iguaçu, Zoo parque Itatiba, Pomerode zoo, and even some private farms that help in the conservation of various species, such as the lear's macaw, for example. Not saying the management is perfect in any of these places, nor that they are better than the ones in our best public institutions, and mainly not saying that all privatisations would bring positive results, but that it's not something to fear in all cases, at least in my point of view. Anyway, it's very needed to keep watching the work of recently privatized zoos such as Rio to make sure they're going through the right path. IMO, the formulation of the exhibits and immersion structures in there are going really well. Let's hope conservation also does.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Completing my previous answer, it's possible to see some private institutions in the country that are actually worried with conservation, such as Parque das Aves in Foz do Iguaçu, Zoo parque Itatiba, Pomerode zoo, and even some private farms that help in the conservation of various species, such as the lear's macaw, for example. Not saying the management is perfect in any of these places, nor that they are better than the ones in our best public institutions, and mainly not saying that all privatisations would bring positive results, but that it's not something to fear in all cases, at least in my point of view. Anyway, it's very needed to keep watching the work of recently privatized zoos such as Rio to make sure they're going through the right path. IMO, the formulation of the exhibits and immersion structures in there are going really well. Let's hope conservation also does.

The difference between newly privatised zoos like SP and the zoos you mention is that the latter began as private institutions that were formed by people with conservation aims whereas the former obviously over many decades were public institutions.

The public institutions are by no means perfect and have a lot of problems. This is self evident and undeniable but these institutions also are built on an ethos that is not profit driven and instead about public service through conservation and education and recreation.

Once the system becomes predicated on profit over service you totally change the dynamic and character of these institutions and old ideas can and do get put by the wayside whereas old staff who may have spent their entire lives working to better ex-situ conservation get pushed out through staff turnovers.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

I've stayed a few days out of this platform and lost the opportunity to get into you guy's conversation, but what me and @Enzo were saying (correct me if you actually meant something different, @Enzo ) is that our zoos, independent of being private or public, seem to be actually evolving (slowly in some cases, unfortunately, but still are) and this brings us hope. I don't know exactly about the possible bad changes that might come with the privatisations, but I once asked Rio's crew if they kept any of the employees of the old zoo, and they said they did, in most cases. This brought me hope that the companies that assume the direction of São Paulo, for example (and other zoos in the future) have the decency of keeping the previous workers that were important for the institution. There are clear differences from the privatisations happening here and the ones that took place in Argentina decades ago, for example, and made the zoos close there.
About the arrival of exotic species to Rio, and what @Onychorhynchus coronatus said about zoo games and etc, I think most of us here have the clear knowledge that zoos are no longer places for simple exhibition, and hope the foreign species that arrive to the institutions have a nice breeding program, or at least have the intention to involve them into one of those. If we were moved by a wish of seeing more and more different animals, we would have been wishing that our zoos brought okapis, orangutans, pandas, and many other that were never kept around here, instead of wroting for the conservation programs we have, or even for the creation of new ones, as we are.

Of course Zoos have been evolving anyway regardless because there are changes sweeping Zoos all over the world and those in Brazil are not in a vacuum or isolated from this wider context.

Evolution / reform in zoos has been occurring over decades now here in Brazil and you only have to look at the work that my colleague Claudia Igayara has done at Guarulhos (which is municipal and not privatised) and within the zoo field in the country to know that progress was coming and inevitable without privatisation.

I don't think it is clear actually and this reflects the tension between Zoos being for recreation or conservation. Under privatisation the easy money making path of recreation will invariably be of higher priority and if it doesn't fully take hold within some institutions it will only be because of old staff from the old public institution days who are fighting hard.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

Of course Zoos have been evolving anyway regardless because there are changes sweeping Zoos all over the world and those in Brazil are not in a vacuum or isolated from this wider context.

Evolution / reform in zoos has been occurring over decades now here in Brazil and you only have to look at the work that my colleague Claudia Igayara has done at Guarulhos (which is municipal and not privatised) and within the zoo field in the country to know that progress was coming and inevitable without privatisation.

I don't think it is clear actually and this reflects the tension between Zoos being for recreation or conservation. Under privatisation the easy money making path of recreation will invariably be of higher priority and if it doesn't fully take hold within some institutions it will only be because of old staff from the old public institution days who are fighting hard.

Totally agree with you. Itatiba and Parque das aves, for example, were born private, with good ideas, differently from public institutions that were privatized... Let's wait to see the first results of this and hope they are good...
About mrs. Igayara, it's such a professional of my admiration. She's the president of AZAB nowadays, isn't she? I'm looking forward to meet Guarulhos zoo and it's work personally.

 

[Onychorhynchus coronatus]

Totally agree with you. Itatiba and Parque das aves, for example, were born private, with good ideas, differently from public institutions that were privatized... Let's wait to see the first results of this and hope they are good...
About mrs. Igayara, it's such a professional of my admiration. She's the president of AZAB nowadays, isn't she? I'm looking forward to meet Guarulhos zoo and it's work personally.

Yes, she is doing well and is an incredible professional, I saw and spoke at length with her back in Febuary when I went to Guarulhos to assist with the transport of one of their marmosets to the Vicosa breeding center.

 

[Enzo]

I believe the Rio de Janeiro zoo kept two reticulated giraffes, back when it opened in 1945. At the Bioparque, in the section informing us about the zoo's history, there's a piece of newspaper from 1945 (published by O Globo) where they say the institution brought two giraffe calves from Buenos Aires for its grand opening. One of the photos show one of the individuals, which resembles those from the reticulated species.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

I believe the Rio de Janeiro zoo kept two reticulated giraffes, back when it opened in 1945. At the Bioparque, in the section informing us about the zoo's history, there's a piece of newspaper from 1945 (published by O Globo) where they say the institution brought two giraffe calves from Buenos Aires for its grand opening. One of the photos show one of the individuals, which resembles those from the reticulated species.

Buenos Aires used to keep more than one species of giraffe in the past, and the individuals that live there nowadays are hybrids. Visually, they look like a reticulated/south african mix, so this fact you're mentioning may be true indeed.

 

[Enzo]

Next on our list are bovids! So, I'll start off with the lowland nyalas, kept in Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo, and Belo Horizonte. Those kept in MG were probably sent to the Fluminense capital zoo between 1991 and 1999, where they bred at least once (I'm not sure if the ones which lived in BH were moved, though). By the looks, São Paulo only kept a single male back in the 1990s, which lived in the African plains exhibit (before it was called like that), along with various other antelope.

 

[Enzo]

The last lowland nyala to live in Brazil was a male which resided at the Rio de Janeiro zoo. He was born there and was already very old when he died, in 2015.

 

[David Matos Mendes]

Next on our list are bovids! So, I'll start off with the lowland nyalas, kept in Rio de Janeiro, São Paulo, and Belo Horizonte. Those kept in MG were probably sent to the Fluminense capital zoo between 1991 and 1999, where they bred at least once (I'm not sure if the ones which lived in BH were moved, though). By the looks, São Paulo only kept a single male back in the 1990s, which lived in the African plains exhibit (before it was called like that), along with various other antelope.

I don't know much about these nyalas from BH, so I can't tell you much about them. All I know is that there were many of them, as we saw in that old video you found on YT. I tend to think they were exchanged with another zoo too, once all those individuals wouldn't have died without leaving offsprings untill the present days...