Species you hate to see in zoos

Goura said:
Of course - but the point is that marine parks cannot provide a situation where the animals can be viewed in anything like their natural state thereby negating any educational value - hence the only way they can make money is to have a circus
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Bottle-nosed Dolphin Exhibit at Harderwijk, 01/06/12 - ZooChat
Bottle-nosed Dolphin Exhibit at Harderwijk, 01/06/12 - ZooChat
Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat

Discovery Cove - Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Discovery Cove - Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Discovery Cove - Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Discovery Cove - Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Discovery Cove - Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat
Discovery Cove - Dolphin Lagoon - ZooChat

~Thylo
 
[QUOTE="ThylacineAlive, post: 1228068, member: 6898"

~Thylo[/QUOTE]
Most educational, but unfortunately not the norm. Still it demonstrates that a suitable habitat can be built for smaller Cetaceans so thank you for that. I'm still opposed to Orcas and Belugas though and would never patronise an organisation that maintains them.
 
TinoPup said:
You're moving goal posts here. Having them in captivity lets many, many more people learn about them, making people want to donate to conservation matters for the species.
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I'm sorry if it appears that way - @ThylacineAlive has educated me by providing links to an amazing dolphin display so I agree it's possible - I still find it distressing to see them swimming around endlessly in tanks though and I wouldn't support those kinds of organisations. That doesn't mean I'm going out and joining PETA. In the case of Cetaceans I think the lack of quality environments outweighs any educational value. I'll stick to natural history films for that.
 
TinoPup said:
Captivity has also lead to the general public knowing a lot about some species, and cetaceans in general. Everyone knows what an orca is, or a bottlenose dolphin, and that wouldn't be the case without captivity.
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elefante said:
Or the sperm, humpback, or gray whale? Whales are definitely an ABC species people are aware of without individuals in captivity. That being said, it's a tragedy something small like the vaquita was never in captivity. Those are quietly going extinct now.
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I agree. Captivity could save smaller species, but cetaceans need to be kept properly. People have known about whales about centuries and knew about orcas and bottle-nosed dolphins before they were kept in captivity.
 
Goura said:
Of course - but the point is that marine parks cannot provide a situation where the animals can be viewed in anything like their natural state thereby negating any educational value - hence the only way they can make money is to have a circus
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But that´s the case for many animals. Tell me a single big bird enclosure that allow them to fly like they do in the wild. Not to mention the ones that migrate or almost any other big animal, whose territories are impossible to recreate. At least dolphins usually have much more mental stimulation than other species. I agree that most dolphinariums are outdated, but that´s no reason to stop keeping them, but to improve their conditions.
 
Merintia said:
But that´s the case for many animals. Tell me a single big bird enclosure that allow them to fly like they do in the wild.
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You can't compare a bird with a cetacean which is a highly intelligent organism. I've seen many bird collections which allow the inhabitants to live in a very healthy natural environment that allow them to exhibit all natural behaviours and produce many generations.
 
ThylacineAlive said:
And were actively killing them before they became popular in captivity..
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That's true, Thylo. I have some old animal books that devote pages to hunting techniques and various harpoons and the like and relatively little to the natural history of whales. The same books also treat some animals, such as wolves, as the enemies of people and entreating for them to be destroyed.
 
Dassie rat said:
That's true, Thylo. I have some old animal books that devote pages to hunting techniques and various harpoons and the like and relatively little to the natural history of whales. The same books also treat some animals, such as wolves, as the enemies of people and entreating for them to be destroyed.
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Unfortunate, but I believe it. Just like with whales/dolphins, though, zoos were fundamental in changing public opinion about wolves. There would be no Red or Mexican Wolves left today even were it not for zoos.

~Thylo
 
Goura said:
You can't compare a bird with a cetacean which is a highly intelligent organism. I've seen many bird collections which allow the inhabitants to live in a very healthy natural environment that allow them to exhibit all natural behaviours and produce many generations.
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Are you serious? Many other animals are highly intellgent. About birds, corvids and parrots are on very similar level as dolphins, and certain finches and herons, among many others, show signs of high intelligence. But again, tell me those many bird collections that allow their raptors, migrating birds, or highly social species show "all their natural behaviours". Oh, and dolphins and orcas also produce many offspring on several generations.
 
Goura said:
You can't compare a bird with a cetacean which is a highly intelligent organism. I've seen many bird collections which allow the inhabitants to live in a very healthy natural environment that allow them to exhibit all natural behaviours and produce many generations.
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I'd be quite happy to compare a bird with a cetacean. Crows, parrots and penguins are probably on a level with them
 
Merintia said:
Are you serious? Many other animals are highly intellgent. About birds, corvids and parrots are on very similar level as dolphins
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True, but corvids and parrots are generally well catered for in captivity and there are successes in their captive breeding & reintroductions in the wild - how many cetaceans is that true of? I've seen many collections where all types of birds are able to lead a fairly natural life and exhibit natural behaviours, but I can't say the same about Cetaceans. Ultimately it comes down to my belief that cetaceans in captivity are distressing to observe - but I accept your opinion whilst not agreeing with it at all.

In addition the fact that dolphins and orcas are bred in captivity without any plan in mind for what will happen to the offspring (except to stock more marine parks) is a tragic outlook for them indeed.
 
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Goura said:
True, but corvids and parrots are generally well catered for in captivity and there are successes in their captive breeding & reintroductions in the wild - how many cetaceans is that true of? I've seen many collections where all types of birds are able to lead a fairly natural life and exhibit natural behaviours, but I can't say the same about Cetaceans. Ultimately it comes down to my belief that cetaceans in captivity are distressing to observe - but I accept your opinion whilst not agreeing with it at all.

In addition the fact that dolphins and orcas are bred in captivity without any plan in mind for what will happen to the offspring (except to stock more marine parks) is a tragic outlook for them indeed.
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Parrots on a stick are well catered for? Not sure how you can say there aren't successes in captive breeding of cetaceans and then later on in the same post say dolphins are bred semi-regularly.. Do you have any proof that they're bred without a plan in mind? Sure I bet sometimes this happens, but no more so than zoos breeding generic giraffes, Meerkats, and even some big cats like Jaguar without a plan in mind. Why is this okay?* Bottlenose dolphins and Belugas are bred most certainly with a plan for the future. Finally, how can you say "how many cetaceans is that true of" when we've already established species like the vaquita needed captive programs to save it and anti-cetacean activists doomed that.

*which for the record, I do not think any mindless captive breeding is okay.

~Thylo
 
ThylacineAlive said:
Parrots on a stick are well catered for? Not sure how you can say there aren't successes in captive breeding of cetaceans and then later on in the same post say dolphins are bred semi-regularly..

~Thylo
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It's not okay - but we're talking about Cetaceans in particular and whether they can be exhibited in an environment where they can provide any educational value as to their natural behaviour. So, what is that possible plan likely to be?
 
Merintia said:
Are you serious? Many other animals are highly intellgent. About birds, corvids and parrots are on very similar level as dolphins, and certain finches and herons, among many others, show signs of high intelligence. But again, tell me those many bird collections that allow their raptors, migrating birds, or highly social species show "all their natural behaviours". Oh, and dolphins and orcas also produce many offspring on several generations.
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Out of interest, have you watched Blackfish? If so, what did you think of it, the documentary is responsible for influencing many peoples' views on captive Cetaceans.
 
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Goura said:
It's not okay - but we're talking about Cetaceans in particular and whether they can be exhibited in an environment where they can provide any educational value as to their natural behaviour. So, what is that possible plan likely to be?
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You brought up birds :p I was responding to your claims.

The possible plan for breeding? Same as all captive programs, trade animals with other institutions housing the species. Most modern shows are based off of animals' natural behaviors and are usually showcased in order to educate. Obviously they can be exhibit in an environment where they can behave naturally, I've already provided at least two aquaria I know of which does this, and I'm sure there are others. You can include Mystic's Belugas in that as well if we want to expand beyond dolphins.

~Thylo
 
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